Are there actually any other websites like nid15.com for other classic Saturn titles? I'm asking because I'm currently working on a website similar to nid15.com but for the Panzer Dragoon series. Panzer Dragoon Saga has its 15th anniversary next year, with the XBox title Panzer Dragoon Orta also reaching its 10 year anniversary at the end of the year. Couple that with the upcoming release of Project Draco, the Saturn conversions to XBLA and the ongoing support for nid15.com, and there's really no better time to start this project and try to get Sega to port the old Panzer Dragoon games to XBLA/PSN.

Obviously I'd have my website link to nid15.com, as I still regard the original NiGHTS to be one of the best games I've ever played. I hope nid15.com could then do the same and link back to my website, as I think we could only benefit from the synergy between the two communities. I'm currently coding the website from the ground up and I still have quite a bit of work to do, but I hope to have it up and running in a couple of weeks from now.

The main reason I don't think it's a good idea to wait and see what happens is that not only does that mean that we're stuck with the controls, but also that the PC version might be released with the exact same control problems. I don't see why our feedback would need to be viewed by Sega as something negative as long as we provide constructive criticism. All they'd need to understand is that we like the game but would like better controls. I don't see how that would be translated to "the fans say hey hate the entire game".

Of course, if the majority wants to wait and see or accept the game as it is then I'll respect that decision. It's not my intention to barge in here and tell people what to do.

Thanks for the support TRiPPY!

I used the Sega Europe support link in the OP to ask about the possibility of an update/patch for analog control. The response said they'd passed my comments on to the developers.

Yeah, I think everyone should at least open a support ticket. There's no need to spam them and open multiple tickets, just one ticket will do. I don't really agree that they shouldn't be lengthy. If anything that just shows we care about the game. We don't have that many fans that they wouldn't be able to read them all.

As short as this message is, it's less of a stock message than the kind you guys got. At least the possibility of a patch was acknowledged.

That's definitely different from the response of Sega Europe. While it doesn't have to mean anything will change, it's good to hear they're looking into the problem. All the more reason for everyone to contact support as well, I'd say.

We don't really have a thread specifically about the controls yet, so I hope I'm allowed to create this new one. I think we should look into contacting Sega regarding the lack of precision in the controls of the HD version. At least, I don't see the harm in trying! If I've learned anything from the NiGHTS community, it's that they're good at this kind of thing Initial sales for the game seem to be promising, which is actually really important. I've seen people say they're holding of on buying the game until the control problem is fixed. I strongly encourage them to buy the game anyway. NiGHTS as a franchise depends on this game. If the game is profitable, we can probably expect to see more NiGHTS ports on the next-gen systems. Those ports could resolve the issues we have in the current HD port. But if it doesn't sell, we can forget about seeing NiGHTS again. The control issues aren't worth risking that, especially given how low the price of the game is.

Also, the PC version isn't even out yet. If the console versions sell, Sega may yet invest additional resources into fixing the controls for it. And who knows, if we get lucky they may patch the console versions as well. With that said, I made this video in the hopes of illustrating the problem. I think it really shows the difference between the Saturn version and the HD version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnrnj6aRzwk

I've looked at the PS3 version as well, it seems a bit better than the XBox360 version in terms of controls, but it's still not comparable to the PS2 version and the original game.I think our best chance of getting something done is simply contacting Sega's support (seemed to work for Binary Domain when Steam users contacted Sega about control issues, and for the PS3 port of Bayonetta). I don't think a petition is really helpful in this case as we don't quite have the numbers to make a real impression, better to have a 100 support emails than 100 signatures on a petition in my opinion. I think these are the two links we can use:

America: https://segaofamerica.zendesk.com/home
Europe/other: https://support.sega.co.uk/home

Click "submit a request" to open a ticket with support. Obviously we should to send constructive feedback. For example, tell them you like the game and would like for it to be a success, but emphasize that the controls are really important for the replayability of the game and that the current controls do not allow the level of control needed to get the link chains that were possible in the Saturn version. If you bought the game on multiple platforms, or you're in the top leaderboards for a certain level, you can mention that as well. I'll elaborate a bit more tomorrow, and will then contact their support myself as well.

So, any thoughts on this, think it's a good or bad idea? Or does anyone have other suggestions?

I received a stock response to my complaint. It's obvious that Sega aren't going to fix it and I think it's sad that even the fanbase are fairly tolerant of this mistake. A missed opportunity and a shame.

That's perfectly normal, you can't draw conclusions from that because the support staff aren't the ones who decide whether or not a patch gets made. I received this response:

Thank you for contacting SEGA Europe.

Your comments are very much appreciated by SEGA and have been passed on to the relevant department.

If I can be of any further help, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Again, you'll probably have received a similar response. The key thing is, like Charlie said, to get the number of emails high enough so that they can't be easily ignored. That makes it all the more important that everyone here contacts them.

I think we should wait for TRiPPY and DiGi's lead before we do anything rash. They know the ins and outs of Sega far more than we do, so I'm certain they are formulating a plan as we speak. Until then, we should discuss what other issues can be resolved within this port's budget.

I can't speak for TRiPPY and DiGi of course, but DiGi's post seemed to suggest that this is basically a done deal and that we'll have to live with the controls remaining the way they are. I'd certainly like to hear their opinion about us contacting support. Like I said, I don't see why we shouldn't at least try. I'm also worried about waiting too long before contacting Sega. I fear that the control issues are really going to hurt the replayability of the game, which in turn may cause people to quickly forget about the HD version and dismiss it as a poor port. That's not what I want to see happen.

Right squealing aside, we need to make this SPREAD.

I'm going to need all of you guys to do your absolute best at getting this news around to everyone.

It's already trending on Twitter #NiGHTS HD so keep that up.

Put it all over your social networking sites, blogs and websites.

push push push.

I'll definitely spread the word, not just because I consider NiGHTS to be the best game I've ever played, but also because I want to see Panzer Dragoon return as well. And the more NiGHTS sells, the better of a chance we'll have at seeing more Saturn games rereleased. We could probably use some updated banners now that the rerelease has been confirmed

First of all, I hope everyone here doesn't let the controls ruin the game for them. The NiGHTS fans have always remained optimistic despite the setbacks (Journey of Dreams), so to drown the rerelease in negative would be such a waste. A lot depends on this game being a success. If it doesn't sell, it's really going to hurt our chances of seeing any other Saturn remakes. The fact that you're playing NiGHTS on XBox360/PSN after all this time is something of a miracle in itself. Keep in mind that this doesn't have to be the last time we see a conversion of the original NiGHTS. But if it fails, it probably will be.

DiGi, I'm not sure if you can talk about this, but the PC version isn't out yet. Now Sega claims it's under development, but the way it usually goes with conversion like this, I have a feeling it might be mostly finished already. If that's actually the case, it's probably better for you not to mention that If it's still actually under development, then isn't there a chance for them to tweak the controls? Or even patch the XBox360/PSN version. The problem isn't the controller, running NiGHTS in SSF with an XBox360 controller replicates the original Saturn controls very well. I already made a video comparing the two version and demonstrating the problem in more detail (using SSF with the XBox360 controller, and the actual XBox360 versions). I'm not exactly sure I want to upload it yet though, I'd suggest creating a thread specifically to discuss the control issues so it doesn't end up drowning out all the other feedback.

I'm more curious about the method that was used to port this game. Is it an ISO of the PS2 version running on an emulator, or was the whole thing made from scratch using the PS2 version's assets? I ask because I never played the PS2 version.

I'm pretty sure it's a port of the PS2 version, I'm guessing they took the code and converted it to XBLA/PSN. I've been doing some testing between all the different versions, and running on PCSX2 the Sega Ages version looks near identical to the HD versions. The control issues don't seem to be present on the PS2 version though, they're much closer to the Saturn version. So I have to wonder if these control problems are really that difficult to fix. It's almost as if the developers thought the original game used digital controls only, and simply converted the analog input from the controller to digital input. But the PS2 version also had analog controls, so I can't imagine them making that mistake... The problem is easy to note when you just try to run circles with NiGHTS: in the HD versions you're going to make more of a hexagonal or even rounded square sort of shape. It's most likely similar to what you'd get when using a D-pad on the original Saturn. The Saturn version has you making actual circles, and the PS2 version seems very close to the Saturn in terms of analog controls. I'm looking into creating a video comparing all the versions to show what I just described.

Forgive the double post, but I think we need to get something done here and start contacting Sega's support. If I've learned anything, it's that the NiGHTS fans have remained optimistic and constructive every step of the way of achieving their goals. If you can convince Sega to rerelease a game, then getting them to patch that same game should be far from impossible. For example, Sega patched the PC version of Binary Domain even though it was already obvious the game wasn't going to sell. People banded together on Steam and contacted support, all the while giving them constructive feedback on the issues. Not too long afterwards, a large number of control problems were fixed. Most other larger companies I know (like Ubisoft) would never have done that, but Sega did.

If the Binary Domain fans can achieve that, then why shouldn't it be possible to do the same for NiGHTS? First of all, the PC version isn't even out yet (which might end up being a good thing). If we start sending them feedback now, we may have a shot at getting them to fix at least the PC version. Better yet, that can lead to a patch for the XBLA/PSN version as well (most likely the PC version will be optimized for the XBox360 pad anyway, like Jet Set Radio HD).

So I feel like instead of being negative or just accepting this as something we'll have to live with, we should at least try and contact Sega first. Here's a video I made that tries to illustrate the problem with the controls that we could send to them:



The issue is not with the controller, as the video proves. Also, the fact that the PS2 version emulated in HD looks remarkably similar to the HD version suggests that technically the HD version is probably based on the same code. For that reason, I don't think it should be impossible for them to replicate the controls of the PS2 version either.

DiGi, TRiPPY, I'm not sure what you think about trying to contact Sega? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Perhaps they didn't see this as enough of an issue to fix when you reported the problems, but I don't see why that can't change. I think there's definitely strength in numbers here.

Being a port of the PS2 version, it still has all the issues the PS2 version had. Charlie documents 'em all pretty well here. Probably the biggest issues (aside from the controls of course) center around NiGHTS' decreased speed, the decreased boost you get from bumpers, and the reduced size of the paraloop on the Z Axis. All of these things make some of the larger links you were able to get in the Saturn version impossible.

That's interesting, but according to Alex Atkin on the Sega forums, like timings are improved compared to the PS2 version:

http://forums.sega.c...sion-vs-the-PS2

So I'm not sure if all those points in the document are still valid? In any case, I think we should have a separate thread to discuss the problems rather than this one. Do the moderators here mind if I start a new one?

lol don't be so dramatic dude, it's coming and I know this because DiGi's working on it and I know the actual release date. An announcement will happen soon I promise.

That's good to hear! With SA2 being announced for PC and no mention of NiGHTS I was getting a tad worried as well.

Here's a sales analysis of Gamasutra which basically confirms RedTail's findings:

http://www.gamasutra...ctober_2012.php

Interestingly the game seems to be doing well on the XBLA charts in Japan, where it's outselling Sonic Adventure 2. That's something, even though the audience is very limited there. On the US sales charts, the game entered the top 90 again so there's some recovery there. Also interesting is that Sega has 10 games in the top 90 XBLA US daily sales chart at the moment, so they're doing quite well there overall.

Well 2,000 more copies and we'll be caught up to the petition numbers... so that's not too bad I guess. :|

There's also the PSN version so it might have reached about 10,000 copies. The problem is that this places the game far behind Jet Set Radio HD and Virtua Fighter 5: FS, let alone Sonic Adventure 2... I'm not sure how much it needs to sell to be profitable, but I'm guessing it'll have to be more. I hope this doesn't make Sega change their mind about releasing the PC version.

The PSN leaderboard seems to be limited to 1000 players (or it's a real coincidence and exactly 1000 players were listed on Spring Valley), is this not the case for the XBLA version then? I'm not sure how to interpret the numbers though. For what it's worth, the game seems to be following just behiond Sonic Adventure 2 in overall sales. I'd like for it to do better though, there doesn't seem too much hype around the release.

In comparison, Jet Set Radio HD sold 10,000 copies in its first week and another 10,000 copies in its second week. It's indeed a sharp decline after an already relatively weak start. I think it shows that NiGHTS failed to reach a new audience, and judging from the reviews this has a lot to do with the game simply being too difficult to understand. Nowadays gamers expect games that are easy to get into and offer immediate rewards. NiGHTS does exactly the opposite, and while I think it makes sense that the game throws you into a dream world where you don't really know what to do, it's clearly being punished for it. The game desperately needs a tutorial area. That combined with the fact that it's not the definitive version of NiGHTS due to the controls issues translates into the poor sales that we're seeing now.

It's disheartening. I don't know how much the game needs to sell for it to be profitable, but this was just a port. A genuine sequel, even using the same engine, would cost considerable more than that. I think the lesson Sega and the fans learned with this release is that:

a) if you're going to rerelease a game like NiGHTS, you need to make sure the controls work or you ruin fan enthusiasm and the game's replayability.
NiGHTS is a niche game. Most of the time people either love it or hate it. Sega should release DLC for this game for the simple reason that, while few people buy the game, most of those are often willing to invest more money into it. I'm not saying they should have sold Christmas NiGHTS separately for example, I'm very much against that. But actual new content like additional costumes would be a good addition. I think what Sega did with VF 5 recently wasn't a bad idea, it just needs to be balanced.

I don't know if the fans can do anything to give the game a boost at this point. If Sega would fix the controls, maybe they could use that as a sort of a relaunch. But that's of course a big if.

If Nights made an appearance on the XB dashboard it would help a lot I reckon.

Actually last time I checked, it was in fact displayed on the XB dashboard just like JSR. What's disappointing is the lack of positive reviews on Metacritic. I'm seeing a lot more (smaller) positive reviews on the game lately yet its been at 72 on Metacritic with only a few reviews for a while now. Speaking of Metacritic, only my user review is listed there at the moment. So I could really use some help from the other fans, if the reviews fail to explain what's so good about the game, then the fans certainly should Please don't bring down the score because of the controls though, especially now that we're still trying to get those fixed.

It's going to be difficult to find any actual numbers, but the game has dropped below Jet Set Radio in daily XBLA sales so that's not exactly a good sign. Unlike Sonic Adventure 2, the game doesn't seem to have much staying power in the charts. I'm not sure how much of that is caused by the control issues.

I now wish every reviewer would review Nights again post-patch. Now the controls are sorted the first time impact of Nights' speed and gracefulness is restored and the greatness of the original is retained. I would not have thought as much of Nights had I played it for the first time with stiff controls..

Sega should make a post on their blog about the patch to bring it to people's attention. They might as well use that as a reason to bring the game in the news again.

Thanks for the confirmation TRiPPY. That's actually good news, since that means the PS3 version will most likely also get the same changes to the speed as well. I thought the PS3 controller was at fault but since it hasn't been patched yet, the game will probably end up controlling just as well as on XBox360 when they do release the patch. I think this is more than we could have hoped for. My thanks to you and DiGGi for helping us get this patch!

Maybe because I downloaded today about 6pm, it may be fixed from the get go because it seems to play smooth as I remember and not like the comparison version(though they used xbla version)Can anyone confirm its updated.

I didn't spend a lot of time testing the PS3 version. At first I thought it had the same problem, but after playing it again recently it does seem like the controls there were already analog from the start (even though I honestly thought they were worse before, but the game version is still at 1.00). I do think the PS3 controller is just not very well suited for the game compared to the XBox360 controller. I'd basically need to use some kind of converter to really test if both versions are really the same. The question I do have though is whether or not NiGHTS moves as fast on the PS3 version as on the newly patched XBox360 version. That I'm not so sure about. Do any of the experts here know an easy way to test this?

As charlie already hinted at, Sega actually released a new patch for the XBox360 version of the game today! I'm not sure if it's been released for PS3 as well, I still have to check that. I've just tried the controls a bit, and I'm definitely noticing a difference. My first impressions are that the controls now feel similar to the PS2 Sega Ages game, which basically means they're, indeed, fixed.

I'm not sure if there are other changes yet. I got the impression that NiGHTS seems to move faster than before, although that could just be the snappier controls making it seem that way. I'll leave the more detailed analysis to the experts here I'll also make a new video showing the comparison between the old and new version. Also, thanks to all the people that contacted Sega about the control problems, and of course Sega themselves for listening to the fans!

I just played the game on the PS3 and I didn't notice a difference. I'm going to re-download the game since I assume it didn't automatically detect the patch and updated the game with it. If what you say is true, Sega has my undying love.

I just tried but I didn't get an update for the PS3. The problem wasn't as pronounced on the PS3 version from what I could tell either, although my time playing that version was limited. I'd appreciate it if someone could confirm my initial impressions of the patched XBox360 version as I'm starting to doubt myself here (although comparing the video I just made now and the one before the patch, the difference really seems to be there).

I just found the PS3 video I recorded earlier, and it really does show the same problem with NiGHTS moving in a square when trying to loop. It wasn't quite as bad but still very noticeable. So I'm not sure what's going on, because when I played the PS3 version yesterday NiGHTS seemed to move as well as on the patched XBox360 version. I don't know if it's possible the game got a stealth update. I'll also look into trying that trying that 26 link.