98 replies to this topic

[Curiosity Inc.]

Personally, I've developed a theory that Reala represents the "Shadow" archetype in Jungian psychology. Claris and Eliott represent the "Self" and NiGHTS is an amalgam of the "Anima" and "Animus". Thus, we have the whole set of Jung's four chief archetypes.

I wonder if Selph is derived from the "Self" archetype. Hmm...

[Icachan]

Personally, I've developed a theory that Reala represents the "Shadow" archetype in Jungian psychology. Claris and Eliott represent the "Self" and NiGHTS is an amalgam of the "Anima" and "Animus". Thus, we have the whole set of Jung's four chief archetypes.

I wonder if Selph is derived from the "Self" archetype. Hmm...

Yeah, I read about that in the other topic! Seems like a very possible theory.

[Huruyami]

I know.


NiGHTS: Lets go fly and have fun and be creative!

Reala: Imagination and creativity are overrated.

NiGHTS: DIE YOU FIEND!

*maren catfight*

I think I know what you mean, Ten. NiGHTS can be seen as something bright, cheerful, graceful...something from the Imagination where you can do as you please. Reala on the other hand is dark, gives out a more brutal feeling with his appearance wich could be related to the harshness of Reality and the fear it brings in some people.

..I'm rambling. .__.

[iNSOMNiAC]

Wow, why did I think no one would care about this? X3 Personally, I think Selph was intended to be NiGHTS' inner self. Like...NiGHTS has to come to terms with his past, the fact that he was evil, etc.

Reala: NiGHTS! You cannot resist what you truly are!

NiGHTS: DX Stop playing mind games! I'm the good guy! XP

Selph: *appears all dramatic-like* ...

NiGHTS: oO

Selph: o rly?

*dramatic boss fight ensues with Reala watching for plot purposes*

Something like that.

[Curiosity Inc.]

Wow, why did I think no one would care about this? X3 Personally, I think Selph was intended to be NiGHTS' inner self. Like...NiGHTS has to come to terms with his past, the fact that he was evil, etc.

NiGHTS doesn't need that. (S)he has Reala.

Reala is what NiGHTS should have become. Evil, powerful and completely subservient to Wizeman. NiGHTS fought Reala in the last game, thus confronting his/her past and intended future.

Here's another idea for Selph: This boss would have a theme of something that looks good but turns out to be evil. Say the dreamscape was surrounded by beautiful flowers that turn out to be toxic. There's a beautiful fountain that pulls NiGHTS under with intention to drown when (s)he flies by. And Selph? Has the appearance of a Dreamer just like Elliot or Claris, but flies quickly and rams like a bulldozer.

Make sense?

[iNSOMNiAC]

Huh...Yeah, that would work. I didn't elaborate though. ^^;; I think of NiGHTS and Reala like brothers. I think I should write this out.


NiGHTS and Reala were created by Wizeman at the same time. So, the two of them treated one another as brothers. When NiGHTS decided that being evil wasn't what he wanted and left, Reala took it badly. When Reala says "There is no NiGHTS!", I believe that he's saying that his NiGHTS, the NiGHTS he knew, no longer exists. I take too much time to think of these things, huh? Well, anyways. The two fight because Reala, in his mind, thinks that who he's fighting is not his brother, so it doesn't bother him. NiGHTS is simply a rogue 'Maren who is getting in his way. To put it simply: Reala refuses to acknowledge that his brother even exists anymore. Selph, on the other hand, is NiGHTS' mind telling him what he is. In order for NiGHTS to have a clear conscious and remain good, he must defeat Selph and prove to Reala that no matter what he does, NiGHTS is NiGHTS and will never be evil.


Ok, I'm done. And happy to have gotten that out of my system.


EDiT: Universal "he" for NiGHTS/Selph. Reala...Not so much.

[VERTiGO]

Huh...Yeah, that would work. I didn't elaborate though. ^^;; I think of NiGHTS and Reala like brothers. I think I should write this out.

etc...

Wow... good point. I like that idea, and it seems everyone else does too. they have nothing else to say anymore XD

[iNSOMNiAC]

Yeah, I noticed. oO I think I scared them. ^^;;;

[Curiosity Inc.]

When NiGHTS decided that being evil wasn't what he wanted and left, Reala took it badly.

Sorry for the distraction, but I have to give my thoughts about this.

There seems to be a very common opinion that NiGHTS is good and Reala is evil. I beg to differ. Reala may be evil, but NiGHTS certainly isn't "good". Nor is (s)he evil.

I see NiGHTS is a benevolent trickster. (S)he glides on that line between good and evil. NiGHTS didn't care enough for evil to obey Wizeman, but (s)he didn't care enough for good to stand up against him. So, NiGHTS just went on his/her own little joyrides, ignoring Wizeman's orders. The only time this changed was after Wizeman imprisoned NiGHTS. He put NiGHTS in a cage, thereby taking away the freedom that NiGHTS treasured more than anything else. As revenge, (s)he fought back against Wizeman.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Reala and NiGHTS are opposites because one swore loyalty to Wizeman and the other ignored him. This should never be confused with the notion that one is evil and the other good.

[DiENE]

We should send another package to Sega. 'Cept, this time, it'd be all Selph-related. XD And lovely avatar, DiENE!

I know its kind of late to be replying this but thank you. :3 And yeah, Selph is really something they should incorporate with the new game. Because whether it was a mere file name or not, fandom has made it something of a mystery, a design that can change the plot to a NiGHTS game and make it really interesting. It would be an amazing bit of fan service from our loving, oh so caring developers at Sega to do that for us. ::Sad puppy dog eyes:: ARE YOU LISTENING SEGA!!!

[Curiosity Inc.]

Heck, it wouldn't be too much trouble for Sega; all they'd have to do is pick a boss they were going to put in anyway. Just change his name to "Selph", give him the "Know Thyself!" theme, and it would probably be good enough for most of us.

[YamiLover13]

Sorry for the distraction, but I have to give my thoughts about this.

There seems to be a very common opinion that NiGHTS is good and Reala is evil. I beg to differ. Reala may be evil, but NiGHTS certainly isn't "good". Nor is (s)he evil.

I see NiGHTS is a benevolent trickster. (S)he glides on that line between good and evil. NiGHTS didn't care enough for evil to obey Wizeman, but (s)he didn't care enough for good to stand up against him. So, NiGHTS just went on his/her own little joyrides, ignoring Wizeman's orders. The only time this changed was after Wizeman imprisoned NiGHTS. He put NiGHTS in a cage, thereby taking away the freedom that NiGHTS treasured more than anything else. As revenge, (s)he fought back against Wizeman.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Reala and NiGHTS are opposites because one swore loyalty to Wizeman and the other ignored him. This should never be confused with the notion that one is evil and the other good.

So my boyfriend isn't the only one that thinks this. That is good to know. I always saw NiGHTS as good, but that was before I read what the Japanese translation was. Then my boyfriend came up with the same conclusion as you when I read it to him. Maybe NiGHTS is only helping the kids so he/she can be free. Yet somehow the kids end up thinking of NiGHTS as someone very helpful and special. The ending still makes me think otherwise though.

Wait...what did this have to do with Selph? I think we are running out of things to say. O.O

[iNSOMNiAC]

*nodnod* That's a great point, I could see that. ^^;


EDiT: Yeah, lets get back on topic, heeee.

[Curiosity Inc.]

Heck, it wouldn't be too much trouble for Sega; all they'd have to do is pick a boss they were going to put in anyway. Just change his name to "Selph", give him the "Know Thyself!" theme, and it would probably be good enough for most of us.

Reposted to get back on topic.

[Rhayader]

here are my 2cents.

when i first heard about Selph i came with the theory that initially claris and elliot werent supposed to help each other at the ending of twin seeds and that Selph was actually the fight between the dreamers and their fears. because all they do is help Nightopia, they dont get to fight the fears that tormented them in real life, facing those fears could have been like a preparation to fighting wizeman. anyway, its just some craaazy theory, i totally prefer the way it ended with elliot and claris merging with NiGHTS and working togheter.


anyway, as far as we know... you know that "puffy" nightmare we see on the screenshots? THAT COULD BE SELPH!!! who knows?


as for the origin of the data, i believe that it was found by messing with the files within the cd. the people at sonic cult do a lot of that stuff. one of the files contained a brief description of the bosses and one of them was Selph! by the order of the names it would seem that Selph were to be fought after reala and jackle, but before wizeman. i cant be sure about this, it was a long time. so please on of the pros could shed some light on this


EDIT: i went to sonic cult after making my post and i found this on the page, ill put it here so everyone can check it out

"Deep inside the files of NiGHTS, there's listings of various things. One of these lists contains "descriptive" terms to name each of the bosses in the game. they are:

* #M1:FROGED-DRAGON
* #M2:MRS.FATTY
* #M3:FIRE-CAT'S
* #M4:THE-REALA
* #M5:MANTLE-MAN
* #M6:MONSTER-FISH
* #M7:SELPH
* #M8:WIZED-MAN


As can be seen, a slot called "Selph" exsists, but there is no boss by that name. All the data links to the boss "Wizeman." More info as it develops."

i guess i was wrong about the maren names, gulpo (monster-fish) isnt supposed to be there.

another theory came to mind, it says that the data links to the boss wizeman, what if Selph was the data for the other NiGHTS that works with you? i guess it doesnt make any sense because there would be no point for having a song for it, right?

[YamiLover13]

anyway, as far as we know... you know that "puffy" nightmare we see on the screenshots? THAT COULD BE SELPH!!! who knows?
as for the origin of the data, i believe that it was found by messing with the files within the cd. the people at sonic cult do a lot of that stuff. one of the files contained a brief description of the bosses and one of them was Selph! by the order of the names it would seem that Selph were to be fought after reala and jackle, but before wizeman. i cant be sure about this, it was a long time. so please on of the pros could shed some light on this

That better not be selph! >.<

As for Sonic Cult, yes they do have the information there. They are not in order of bosses though. Becasue right before it is "Monster-Fish".

--Edit--
Dang it you edited your post. But yes I agree, that bit of having all the data link to Wizeman makes me wonder. Or it might do that just so the game works. Who knows.

[Misaki-chan]

another theory came to mind, it says that the data links to the boss wizeman, what if Selph was the data for the other NiGHTS that works with you? i guess it doesnt make any sense because there would be no point for having a song for it, right?

Who ever said there was a song for it?

I know there was a song titled "Know Thyself!" on the soundtrack, but I don't think it was ever explained what the music was for.

[YamiLover13]

Who ever said there was a song for it?

I know there was a song titled "Know Thyself!" on the soundtrack, but I don't think it was ever explained what the music was for.

I agree. It never did but because it says "Thyself" and it is an unused track, everyone assumes it is Selph's theme.

[Miss Rae]

Just for a picture reference.



The location of Selph.

[Sairus]

anyway, as far as we know... you know that "puffy" nightmare we see on the screenshots? THAT COULD BE SELPH!!!

heh, I was just going to point that out! XD It would be pretty funny if Sonic Team deliberatly plastered the hidden boss from the first game all over the world's gaming magazines without telling anyone XD

The location of Selph.

That's a very deep line there XD

[Rhayader]

well, yeah i guess i assumed the music was for Selph's theme. i guess its normal to link 2 hidden things togheter and just make it 1 hidden secret, lol. and since the music is called "know thyself" and since Selph is similar to Self, i guess it was all a perfect fit in a fan's mind.

other than that the music has no explanation to be there. was it supposed to be used on one of the menus? on a promo video? or did the music department just got too much ahead and made the music although the programmers didnt have time to include it in whatever it was supposed to.

[Misaki-chan]

Maybe it was an unused song for the stage replay, or the high scores. It sounds pretty dramatic, but it doesn't really seem anything like the boss themes on the soundtrack.

[YamiLover13]

Maybe it was an unused song for the stage replay, or the high scores. It sounds pretty dramatic, but it doesn't really seem anything like the boss themes on the soundtrack.

Yeah I know what you mean. It sounds like it could have been an alternative song for Twin Seeds. But then they decided on Growing Wings instead. I am not sure. They never put the Full NiGHTS orchestra song in either...only a part of it.

[animejosse]

They never put the Full NiGHTS orchestra song in either...only a part of it.

Which is a damn shame, seeing how lovely that song is.

[YamiLover13]

Which is a damn shame, seeing how lovely that song is.

I can imagine how Mr. Hataya and all the musicians felt when they heard that not all the song would make the cut.

Hataya: It has been many days. But we finally got it right. The NiGHTS into dreams orchestra is complete.

Takeshi Iizuka: I am not sure how to tell you this...but we will have to cut that song from the main game. We have no where it can fit nor the time to put it in. The deadline is coming up.

Hataya: What?! But...but that song is filled with the theme of NiGHTS. It portrays what NiGHTS into dreams is in a beautiful musical production!

Takeshi Iizuka: Don't worry, we are planning for a Christmas version of the game too. Maybe we can include it there. Just maybe. It depends on what happens.

Hataya: Well...we also finished Know Thyself.

Takeshi Iizuka: Yeah...about that.....

I would be ticked. But that is how life works in the video game world.

[Misaki-chan]

Unless either of those songs was made for the soundtrack and not the game. Japanese fans probably know more about that one than we do.

[Q-Lok]

...So after having read the top part of this page, I have to say a few words of my own. Obviously, I have a VERY different view of the Selph character than most fans do. This would be mostly owing to the fact that my Muse's design came long before I ever really discovered the existence of an active fandom. The general gist of it can be found here in my Know Thyself story.

As far as the discussion on NiGHTS and Reala as partners in the game, I think I could see that happening -- if Sonic Team decided to take the same drugs they must have been on when writing SA2 and Sonic Heroes (and all the other new Sonic games, save for Secret Rings). On Reala watching NiGHTS fight Selph, I have problems with that. No way would Reala just watch. If Selph were NiGHTS' own dark side (which would require him to be able to dream, according to my view), Reala would be aiding him. It Selph were another Nightmaren, Reala would try to beat him to the punch. If Selph were an anti-dreamer, Reala would help out to make NiGHTS' life hard -- plus, Selph would therefore not have the power to beat NiGHTS plus the dreamers. Either he has anti-NiGHTS power -- being equal to him but not the dreamers -- or anti-dreamer power -- being equal to them and not NiGHTS. Either way, it doesn't add up.

[Curiosity Inc.]

"Anti-Dreamer?" What is this "Anti-Dreamer" you speak of?

[Sage]

I've had several ideas pop into my head about what kind of maren Selph would be. The most prominent in my head right now is a humanoid maren with the ability to draw out one's "dark side," for lack of a better term, and use it against him/her. It falls in line with the anti-dreamer idea.

Another concept that's run through my mind is Selph being able to "become" what you fear, something like a boggart in Potterdom. I personally would have this ability apply to all characters, dreamers and maren alike, but it would work better in fanfiction than in game.

As far as appearance, I've imagined Selph to be a mostly featureless humaren with a pale complexion; a white, generally patternless body; and colorless eyes. Personality would be cold, sinister, and moderately sadistic. Highly intelligent, adept at psychological warfare (again, lack of a better term ><;;)

... This is making me want to write.

As I said before, the above ideas would work better in fanfiction than in game.

[Curiosity Inc.]

Here's something nobody's considered: How would you fight Selph?

One of the most prominent aspects about the NiGHTS game was the fact that none of the bosses (except Reala and Wizeman) were fought directly. The bosses were like puzzles in and of themselves. So, how would the player go about defeating Selph?

Any ideas?

[Purgatory]

Here's something nobody's considered: How would you fight Selph?

A room of mirrors.. you'd have to shatter the correct one. Or shatter something that would then shatter all the mirrors, revealing him and you try and chase him down and toss him like Jackle a couple times before the mirrors come back together and he hides in them again. Maybe he'd attack with mirror shards or something of the like.

But that idea goes with my personal idea of what Selph was supposed to be.

[Curiosity Inc.]

A room of mirrors.. you'd have to shatter the correct one. Or shatter something that would then shatter all the mirrors, revealing him and you try and chase him down and toss him like Jackle a couple times before the mirrors come back together and he hides in them again. Maybe he'd attack with mirror shards or something of the like.

But that idea goes with my personal idea of what Selph was supposed to be.

Now there's an idea. A boss fight in a house of mirrors.

Heck, just to make it more fun, you could split the arena into chambers -- some "mirrors" would just be doorways into the next chamber. And suppose that every mirror you break splits into shards and flies to attack you. Selph itself could just be a reflection of NiGHTS, only with a darker shade of purple or something.

There's a lot of possibilities here, Purgatory. Good call. Anyone else?

[Roam]

Putting Selph in JoD? I'd love seeing that.

[Misaki-chan]

According to Sonic-Cult, all the information relating to "Selph" in NiGHTS is connected to the Wizeman battle. I told this to a friend (who is much more into programming and stuff), and he says it's probably the A.I. program for the second version of NiGHTS (either Claris or Elliot's version, depending on which of the two you're playing). That makes a lot more sense to me than all of this talk about a deleted boss and stuff. Especially since no matter how hard I try, I can't hear "Know Thyself!" as a boss battle theme. It just doesn't fit the general style of the boss music in NiGHTS, in my opinion.

[Sage]

Mirrors... *gets a ton of mental images* That's a great idea, Purg! Heck, I can think of several ways to implement some of our other ideas with that! *starry eyed* That sounds like one hella fun boss battle.

Man, I wish I could draw. *settles for scribbling for now*

With the mirrorscape in mind, battling Selph could go several ways. To build on and elaborate Purg's idea:

Selph would jump into a mirror and cause identical images of him to appear in every mirror. He then would commence a round of attacks to either be avoided or countered (mirror shards or perhaps damaging illusions of some kind). If attacks are to be countered, then the resulting rebound would stun him for a time, giving the player time to figure out which mirror Selph is hiding in, bust him out, and start wailing on him (drilldash, paralooping, toss around a la Jackle, or possibly even a more NiGHTS vs. Reala type fight) until he backs off and jumps back into another mirror. Rinse and repeat, but as the battle progresses, his attacks increase in power and difficulty to avoid/counter, and it grows progressively harder to figure out which mirror Selph is hiding in. I can see the battle moving from room to room as mirrors shatter, and each new room has either more mirrors or more complex configurations. If the graphics are done right, this could be visually stunning and very confusing, adding to the overall difficulty of the battle.

[Curiosity Inc.]

According to Sonic-Cult, all the information relating to "Selph" in NiGHTS is connected to the Wizeman battle. I told this to a friend (who is much more into programming and stuff), and he says it's probably the A.I. program for the second version of NiGHTS (either Claris or Elliot's version, depending on which of the two you're playing). That makes a lot more sense to me than all of this talk about a deleted boss and stuff. Especially since no matter how hard I try, I can't hear "Know Thyself!" as a boss battle theme. It just doesn't fit the general style of the boss music in NiGHTS, in my opinion.

After a couple of semesters in Computer Science, I find this completely plausible. After all, the A.I. for that second NiGHTS has to come from somewhere, and it makes perfect sense to me for the programmers to write the A.I. as a boss with a few modifications.

It might seem like it would be easier and more efficient to just take the Reala A.I. and direct it against Wizeman, but I don't think that would work. For starters, the fight with Reala was just mano-a-mano. With Wizeman, it was 2-on-1. Furthermore, because the Reala fight was one-on-one, that boss match didn't have the cyclones and meteors and lasers that the Wizeman match had. The Wizeman fight was much more complicated, creating the need for a more advanced (and therefore separate) A.I. I may not be a CS major and my knowledge of C++ is rudimentary, but I've written a couple of basic A.I. programs and that's what I think.

Nevertheless, there's still the question of where "Know Thyself!" came from. If not a boss fight, then where? And it does seem an odd coincidence that two of the more shadowy parts of NiGHTS should have a "self" theme. Curious.

[AirMax]

Or maybe it's not a room of mirrors...But castle of mirrors!

"worlds of Nightopia where the ocean resides in the sky and glass-formed cliffs overlook a castle of mirrors."

From the Sega page.

This whole Seplh thing reminds me of that episode of Sonic X when Sonic has a Dark Super Sonic form, where he turns all black and evil. What if NiGHTS turns into Selph when he's angry? And that's why NiGHTS is as carefree as he seems. Seems.

[PurpleKOGA]

I think, if Selph were to be in JoD, his name is a play on the word ''Self'' so he would probably look like NiGHTS, such as Shadow to Sonic, like an evil lost brother. His level would probably be an open eerie room with metal, crystlas and mirrors. Things that you can see yourSELPH in.

[Purgatory]

Maybe "Know Thyself!" Was the song they were originally gonna use for the Wizeman, with the clone NiGHTS. *shrug*

[Q-Lok]

Or possibly, "Know Thyself!" was to be an alternate theme, just like how there are now two "D-Force Master" songs.