198 replies to this topic

[trueBLUE]

TRiPPY makes awesome essays, and her lastest post brings up a very important point that I have been digging into: SOJ and SOA/E's relationship issues. Being the Nintendo fanboy that I am (I still love SEGA folks, don't get me wrong!!) I have to use Nintendo Co. Ltd and Nintendo of America as an example to HOW a Japanese company and an American counter-part should work. Good game example? Startropics for the NES. It was a co-production between NoA and Nintendo's R&D3 group, and they kept, according to a retro article in a recent Nintendo Power, in touch with the Japanese producer about what he wanted in the story.

According to Sonic Cult, Sonic Extreme for the Saturn was pulled from production because Sonic Team in Japan didn't want to give STi the NiGHTS Into Dreams engine in order to make it 3-D. Another harsh blow came two-three years eariler, when Yuji Naka didn't want Americans on the STi team when they were developing Sonic 3. Some argue it's the stupid stereotype of Japanese xenophobia, while others thought it was pure, unneeded racism. No one will know the true answer.

We seriously (myself included) don't want to see NiGHTS fandom go to hell like Sonic has. As Arch has said (and stated well, I must say) they can bitch but it won't change anything. Same with Nintendo's online plan. Bitch all you want, but I don't want to experience a Halo community where people scream in your ears saying you lost. I will bitch about the lack of Wii space on the system though, because, I want NiD on the VC.

Speaking of VC, Arch... have you UK peoples got Alien Solider yet? It seriously kicks ass. Also, if I fly over to Sega UK and protest for NiD on the VC, will it work? (<-Answer, won't. Worth a try though. =P)

[TRAViS]

Wow TRiPPY. Excellent essay. And now, for some direct responses, because that's how I roll.

I think until SEGA figures out what made NiGHTS special in the first place and then markets it to the biggest potential area, then people will always be unsure of it to even try it.

I love how you used the verb "market" there. I think one of the reasons why non-Sonic SEGA games have difficulty selling well goes right back to something that it seems the post-Dreamcast company's had a consistent problem with: advertising. In the past year I saw very, VERY few advertisements for any SEGA games in the biggest advertising venues: Television and Print. I want to say I saw an advertisement for Virtua Fighter 5 on TV once. Once. And I have my tube glued to the epitome (at least it used to be) of video gaming TV most of the time: G4. I've also seen advertisements in gaming magazines, which I suppose works well, but once again I gotta stress that this is a post-Dreamcast era and most gamers are getting their information from the thing we use to connect our computers to each other.

Having said that, I noticed that it seemed more SEGA games were getting advertised a lot more online (one site, I can't remember which, was even blanketed with an SST background), but therein also lies a peculiar problem. Can you honestly tell me the last time you clicked on a banner, flash, or text-link advertisement that wasn't by mistake and was for something you had little or no interest in? Neither can I. Unfortunately, it seems the things that generate the most interest in the public are the things that generate the most interest in the media. Getting a stunning, well-crafted, clever advertisement of...oh...Sega Rally Revo 2 for example (more on that in a moment) next to IGN's Halo 4 headliner probably isn't going to work very well. Turn it the other way around, and get a SEGA game as a headliner, and that's going to set off a lot more interest with the readers. I remember back when NiGHTS: JoD was first confirmed and watched it shoot up the GPMs and 1up.com's popularity tracker. Then, as launch drew nearer and more and more 6- and 7- reviews came in, it fell like a lead balloon. Had those been more like 8s, I bet the game would have sold considerably better. The Christmas rush was a dense market full of spectacular titles (Rock Band, Mass Effect, Mario Galaxy, Call of Duty 4, The Orange Box) and with a lot of people on a tight budget, reviews were the only way to really figure out where their money should go. I'm dragging this out too much. You get the point. On to the next topic.

It's all down to time. And because games take longer to make thesedays because of the technology and artist/creative work required compared to pixels on a Megadrive in the 90's- things tend to end up rushed to cut costs and stay on schedule. So much stuff seems to get shoved into games at the last minute half arsedly these days, it's a real shame. Things were cut from JoD that make me a sad panda because they were good things. Time time time. Time really is money.

Quoted For Truth. When Sega Nerds reported yesterday that Sega Racing Studio closed up shop I almost cried. Down the tube went my hopes for Daytona, Sega Super GT, OutRun (oh god now I'm really gonna cry), and more. Their five-year plan wouldn't make the company profitable. For what it was, Sega Rally Revo was a stunning game which generally received lots of praise. There's a title where hard work and dedication paid off. Every system it was on it looked and played phenomenally. It just didn't sell well enough. Why? Read above.

In the case of NiGHTS, or hell, any game for that matter, cutting corners to make a release date in the search of profit is always treacherous. Pushing and cutting two months of work into two weeks before the deadline is sacrificing quality so much that it hampers the game. Which leads to the snowball effect where the reviews go lower than they should because of the things they cut or the things they leave unpolished (I mean for god sake's someone could have at LEAST taken the five minutes to re-encode Helen's VO +8 dB louder!) which in turn leads to less sales and a worse image of the game, and maybe the company depending on the high-profile...ness of the title on the whole.

The only thing that can realisticly be done to improve the situation is if both SOA and SOE -REALLY- rely on their fans to back them up and understand what the actual political mechanics are. [......] As far as they're concerned if a person buys it, it doesn't matter if they love it 100% as long as they sold a copy. Because the interest building up on their heads must be truly frightening. They don't have the time nor money to completely turn a company around on a whim. I think the only way that would happen is if they went bankrupt and had to start from scratch.

As cool as that would be (building the game entirely relying on fans) it just won't happen. Maybe in the Megadrive and early Saturn days, but not today. Games are driven by spreadsheets showcasing demand, and it's all down to the equation of what type of game will lead to the best sales. It's basically down to a science now. Scientific advances in pursuit of profits will always overcome the artistic drive, ambition, and inclination of individuals. Society in itself I feel is going down the same track, but that's an epic debate for another time and group of people on the whole.

Basically, what you said about the Chaotix and other days about seeing what can be done now that the technology is available is irrelevant now. Despite the technological complexity of modern systems and the hundreds of unique game ideas now possible, we're still seeing rehashes of every game ever that's been beaten like a dead horse since the turn of the century (and in some cases, earlier). Just look at the NUMBERS we're up to in some titles. Megaman...18? Mario Party 8, Gran Turismo 5, Burnout 5, Guitar Hero 4 + Aerosmith edition, the eighth or ninth GTA game, and lord knows the sixth or seventh dip into Half-Life. And these games sell. A lot. There's no drive to try anything new because it's too much of a financial risk for these companies. Is Mass Effect really that unique of a title because you can go tons of places (like PSU) and do all sorts of things in the world (like The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion) and play through the game on your own play style (like the Star Wars title they worked on before it)?

NiGHTS got a sequel because the demand seemed high. Had the timing not been perfect, last year's big SEGA release would've probably been another poor to mediocre Sonic rehash. And, as can probably be expected, since the actual sales demand for the game was horrendous, NiGHTS would almost certainly be a guaranteed loss for SEGA in future incarnations. The ONLY way I could see an exception is if it were coming to the XBOX Live marketplace or Playstation Store, where the game could be given a lower budget, a more lenient deadline, less man-power behind it, and a really dedicated team of individuals. I'd love to be a part of that kind of team, where creative ideas and talent have more room to run around and get fleshed out instead of having them statistically shot down or time-crunched into oblivion. That's where games can be games and not instruments to a cash flow.

Oh, and as for SEGA going bankrupt? I doubt that. A lot. SEGA's got so many high-profile intellectual properties that any publisher or developer would shell out billions for that it's more likely a company would buy them out and relieve them of their debts than having them go bankrupt. Free of financial problems, things could improve. Depending on the company that buys them out. That in itself is another big debate: if they ever get bought out, who'd be the best company they could be absorbed into?

I was writing a letter today to SEGA Europe praising them for the community work done recently and It's downright frustrating to see parts of the company REALLY GETTING IT RIGHT and other parts completely failing in the brain to see obvious things that is making them lose customers. Although SOA have been personally a tad annoying imo lately compared to how they used to be, i can't help but feel sorry for them and SOE.

Mmm I gotta hand it to SOE. Shout out to ArchangelUK and the rest of the PR team; you guys absolutely rock. Connecting with the community's the best way to earn true fans and spread the good word. Companies rarely do that, but when they do I notice things always work out a lot better in the end, and the games produced with more community input and involvement become excellent products. Like Invictus Games. Any diehard PC racing gamer should agree; they listen, they deliver. I don't know just how much control SOE has in terms of development and publishing of SEGA titles, but if SOE was the head honcho here I think things would make a turn for the better than having SOA and SOJ holding the reigns. Not that they've done a terrible job or anything, but they're definitely off the proverbial course right now.

I'm still not sure to this day if JoD is supposed to be a sequel to NiD. It confuses the crap out of me lol. It's either a new 'take' of the original game or not an actual sequel at all. Which makes me wonder if any new NiGHTS games in the future will be complete rehashes of the last last game. Sort of like how FF does it.

I remember early on it was mentioned that JoD was a "retelling" of the original. So, I don't think it could be called a sequel. It definitely feels like it went down an FF-style path. And I think the problem with the fanbase's perception of the game is that we're thinking it was supposed to be a "NiGHTS game," when we only had one game to tell us what a NiGHTS game was. My initial opinion was that JoD was a good game, but not a good NiGHTS game. See the difference? You can't directly compare Final Fantasy games like that. I have a feeling that if the series continues then the same thing will probably apply for NiGHTS.

Anyways I'm rambling too. There's my big post quota for the year.

NiGHTS 3. I'm still hoping.

[iLLViLLAiN]

Man am I learning a lot here today. All these gigantic walls of text explaining gaming politics lol. It's all so interesting. I knew SEGA had to have some issues but I didn't expect this many. This is just a shame really. So does this mean that SEGA may never reclaim the success and respect it once had?

[viperxmns]

Whatever happened to simply trying to make great video games. Sooner or later something's got to give at SEGA HQ. You'd think that since they dropped out of hardware, even more time would be spent on game development, but I guess the fact that these games are developed now on multiple consoles that re not their own proprietary hardware makes matters even more difficult..? I haves no idea.

[iLLViLLAiN]

Whatever happened to simply trying to make great video games. Sooner or later something's got to give at SEGA HQ. You'd think that since they dropped out of hardware, even more time would be spent on game development, but I guess the fact that these games are developed now on multiple consoles that re not their own proprietary hardware makes matters even more difficult..? I haves no idea.

I've heard a lot of people say it's Sammy's fault for making things the way they are now. I have no idea but I don't think that it's Sammy that has ruined this company as much as it has. As Digi, Trav, and Trip said, sh*ts fucked up.

[Nemoide]

I like these rambles. It can certainly be tough being a former rabid-SEGA-fanboy living in the USA.

Especially when it comes to properties like Panzer Dragoon. After Saga, I came to accept that a sequel would be unlikely at best. Then Orta was announced and I bought an Xbox just to play it. It was amazing, well advertised, got near universal praise from critics as being one of the best Xbox games at the time, and somehow failed to sell. I do not understand why it was not a success. It even offered a hints as to the ambiguous ending of Panzer Dragoon Saga while opening up many more ambiguities with a story that begs for a sequel. Yet because of its poor sales, no sequel could ever come. Especially not a large, well-funded RPG as the series deserves another one of. Now there is nothing left but despair for the future while desperately clinging to the past.
I have no idea why so many of Sega's best post-Dreamcast games flopped and do not fully understand how Sega of America became what they are now. I would like to think that Sega could somehow get out of the state they are currently in. But it does not seem likely.

Anyway is this getting too far off topic? I hope not...

[Saifer Dracondrali]

the premature death of the dreamcast always confused me as well :/ It had some great games Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia, SA2, PSO... ahh good times, good times... Which is why I was surprised I didn't figure it out sooner. The Dreamcast was released just a little more than a year before the ps2 came out. So People were already savin up for a ps2 NOT a dreamcast so it was bad timing that caused its demise... so sad ;_(
uhh lets see NiGHTS 3 I have utmost confidence that they will make a sequel maybe not soon but still preferably when I'm there ta help make it :3
Though I'm sure you all know that there will be a sequel as well without doubt at some point-in-time, right?

[DiGi Valentine]

Yeah, i think i'm responsible for taking this one off topic. Apologies for that. I got caught up in the amount of crap that's been thrown around for the last 10 years and after sitting over at the Sonic Stadium for a while i kinda got into my groove with the whole thing and wanted to voice just how utterly pissed off i really am. Since there is no NiGHTS 3 as of now then this topic can continue as it is. If anything new regarding NiGHTS does turn up at the end of next month then there'll be a new topic about it, i'm sure.

Every company has a dark story to tell. It's natural. There's too many people in this world with different ideals and preferences for a single company to be complete bullshit free. It's sad but true. And as much as i love Sega, i hate the things i've learnt about them over the years. I'm still a supporter of their work and fan, don't get me wrong...but it's the stuff i hear that upsets me because i honestly can't believe something like that is going on behind those doors at that company. They created Sonic the Hedgehog and he was well-loved back in the 90's by everyone, not just Sonic fans. It's hard to imagine that the company that was responsible for creating that guy is also responsible for acting up with some of the most retarded sh!t i've heard in years, from rivaling between offices within the company to down right racism from some of the employee's. You would have never of imagined it if you were not in the know.

The closure of the UK Sega Racing Development Team has really upset a lot of fans. I wonder about Sega's real motive for closing it down because i can tell you right now it isn't because Sega Rally Revo didn't sell. It was their first bloody game. It got respectable feedback and the office itself looked to have a promising future. Sega shuts them down because it's first game didn't sell too well? Sega have had worst departments make worse games than Sega Rally Revo and they're still open, making shyte by the bucket load.

I want nothing more than for Sega to pick up it's act but how on earth are they going to do that when every other month some new sh!t hits the fanbases? Do they think we don't know what's going on in there? This is the internet and people know people. Word on the net travels fast and anything that goes on in that company gets told to the outside world whether it be to admins of websites like ours or just random friends/strangers/etc
You look at websites like Sonic CulT and you think for a second "why are they annoyed at Sega?" and then you find out some hometruths yourself and you find yourself in the same boat as them in terms of opinion. We all have one thing in common and that is we like Sega but some of us know probably more than we should while others know less and can't see why we're complaining all the time.

[trueBLUE]

On the Wii front, Sega-wise, the outlook is pretty healthy. We have gotten a lot of nice VC releases (ALIEN SOLIDER FTW!! =D) and Super Monkey Ball has an established fanbase in Nintendo (Nintendo likes the series too, surprise!). Also, despite Miyamoto being harsh on Nintendo's outsourcing during the GCN days (it should only apply to the peice o' sh*t that was Star Fox Assualt) I though Amusment Vision did a wonderful job on F-Zero GX and AX.

Dear Sega:
I want an AV-developed NiGHTS game. Pretty please?

[Murasaki Doku]

I'd like to see Retro Studios do a NiGHTS game. Mostly they did an absolutely AMAZING job on the Metroid Prime series. They know how to do things RIGHT. Sure, the obnoxiously long wait between those games was excruciating but it was so worth it in the end.

[iLLViLLAiN]

Well you know what would be kinda cool? I'd hate to say it because that'd mean it'll only be on the Wii and that's one system that's impossible to find. Since Miyamoto loved NiD so much and even said he wish he'd had made it why not let him take a crack at the next NiGHTS game. You never know how it could turn out. I'm pretty sure it'll look like a self induced acid trip with bright atmosphere but it'd still be interesting to see what Mario's daddy could do with NiGHTS.

[Saifer Dracondrali]

Well you know what would be kinda cool? I'd hate to say it because that'd mean it'll only be on the Wii and that's one system that's impossible to find. Since Miyamoto loved NiD so much and even said he wish he'd had made it why not let him take a crack at the next NiGHTS game. You never know how it could turn out. I'm pretty sure it'll look like a self induced acid trip with bright atmosphere but it'd still be interesting to see what Mario's daddy could do with NiGHTS.

after making such a wonderful gem like twilight princess I'm all for that Idea... or ideya, common pun on this site right?

I want nothing more than for Sega to pick up it's act but how on earth are they going to do that when every other month some new sh!t hits the fanbases? Do they think we don't know what's going on in there? This is the internet and people know people. Word on the net travels fast and anything that goes on in that company gets told to the outside world whether it be to admins of websites like ours or just random friends/strangers/etc

*writing letter to Sega*
"Dear Sega,

I we know what your doing... stop it now and make a good NiGHTS game, and make certain it is something great... we don't want anything to happen to your little... friend... now would we?"
*ends letter*
You think it would work if Arch played dumb about this letter?

[Moonlighttrill]

Well, since im almost done with this yea of university english, no more essays or exams, i may write detailed reviews on each NiGHTS games (and spin offs maybe) along with essays comparing them soon. I posted a few ideas (in rather large posts) but i have MUCH more input on the creation of a future NiGHTS game. I think it'd be nice to make a good critical essay, keep me in tip top shape for next year.

[Innotech]

I now own Chirstmas NiGHTS, NiGHTS JOD, and soon (via ebay if the seller isd honest) NID and an analog controller. I say BRING ON MORE NIGHTS. Its like a drug. a totally legal drug with no ill effects that makes me feel amazing. And holy hell it is addictive. IIzuka, Sonic Team, you guys rock. I forgive you for all the Sonic missteps because you guys created the best franchise I have ever known. and I say this as a diehard Nintendo fan. SEGA RULES THE ROOST.

[Saifer Dracondrali]

I want Hizou Miyazaki ta help work on NiGHTS 3
ya, ya, dream on, I know, but hey ya gotta admit it would be truly epic!

[ArchangelUK]

Sends Telegram:

DEAR JOD FORUMS STOP.
HAVE RECIEVED YOUR LETTER STOP.

REGARDS ARCHANGELUK STOP.

PS: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP.

[TRiPPY]

XD hahahaahhah

So did you get cookies for breakfast as a bonus prize?

[ArchangelUK]

Alas no.

[TRiPPY]

Boo!

[ArchangelUK]

If anyone wants to send us biscuits in the post you can at the following address...

[TRiPPY]

NiGHTSintoDreams.com is going to turn into the SEGA Europe Lunch delivery service isn't it?

[DiGi Valentine]

NiGHTSintoDreams.com is going to turn into the SEGA Europe Lunch delivery service isn't it?

I quit.

[TRAViS]

I quit.

Can I has ur job?

[DiGi Valentine]

Can I has ur job?

No. I'm destroying the planet on the way out. You're all coming with me.

[DAiLiGHT]

No. I'm destroying the planet on the way out. You're all coming with me.

Finally. I've been waiting for someone man enough to do that. Can I help launch the missiles? Can the first one land on my ex-boyfriend's house?

[Moonlighttrill]

Well, i believe this topic has gone beyond DDR dancepad on extreme mode. Now the admins are trolling with replies of biscuits and world domination/destruction. All your base are belong to DiGi! (im gonna pick the side of the guy with power)

[iLLViLLAiN]

Well, i believe this topic has gone beyond DDR dancepad on extreme mode. Now the admins are trolling with replies of biscuits and world domination/destruction. All your base are belong to DiGi! (im gonna pick the side of the guy with power)

Just for that comment you will be the first to go.

[Saifer Dracondrali]

At least I will have a nice view. now I just gotta take my moon base back from terrorists... AGAIN! so I can enjoy the show. since I don't seem to have popcorn at the moment to watch with I'll just eat these tasty biscuits.

TASTY BISCUITS!
NOW WITH EXTRA FATTY GOODNESS!!!
(I has high metabolism... I care not)

[iLLViLLAiN]

I can easily see you are bluffing Saifer but I must ask you one thing. Who put you up to this?

[Moonlighttrill]

Just for that comment you will be the first to go.

Damn, lets hope i get my 46 virgins....*sees a chubby polish best friend in front of him* crap...

[Saifer Dracondrali]

I can easily see you are bluffing Saifer but I must ask you one thing. Who put you up to this?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean...
explanation plz?

[nightdreamer]

I personally hope that if they are making a new NiGHTS game that it will also be for the Wii. I personally loved JoD especially all of the different challenges and I still love the original which we had aspects of in the NiGHTS Capture challenges. I also think that they should make it easier to control the characters especially if they want to use the Wii remote (that was the hardest thing to use but I used the Game Cube controler or the nunchuck attatchment to play that was cool!) I also loved the storyline of both NiD and JoD. Besides there's a positve point for them to make a NiGHTS 3, we get off of the cliffhanger that JoD left us on. (I'm sure that everyone here knows what I'm talking about.)

[PenMaren]

I don't know. I am confused.??????????????????????????? I would like it if there was a N iGHTS 3, but I hate waiting. What do u think??? Will there be a NiGHTS 3???????????????

[iLLViLLAiN]

My theory on the story of NiGHTS 3:

*The story takes place in a completely different reality from the last two installments.

[The story]
Word has come in that Big Wise has an extremely deadly weapon. One that can destroy any piece of Nightopia from anywhere in the world of Nightmare. This highly dangerous weapon is known as Ideya Cog. Only one has the training and reputation to discard of this threat. That someone is only known as Maren NiGHTS. An operative once under the order of Wizeman but in the past decade defected over to the Nightopia Corp. due to his personal beliefs.


[The actual mission]
You are to infiltrate Exterior Dreamscape and take down Big Wise in order to end the threat against the inhabitants of Nightopia. You are to first rescue Marenous Jackle who we sent in earlier but was captured shortly after his infiltration. Then you must find a way to destroy Ideya Cog. For this assignment, refer to me as Major Elliam in case anyone tries to break into our radio connection. Good luck.


[Some useless character info inside of the booklet]
Big Wise himself had defected from the Nightopia Corp. It was after he was forced to kill his own teacher, his own friend, and even more so the only person he could call his family. After he upheld his orders under the Nightopia Corp. he saw that even their greatest combatants were expendable. Worthless. Nothing more but tools. He then left Nightopia Corp. to create a place where people could fight for what they believed in without being used as objects. This place is known as Exterior Dreamscape.

[DiGi Valentine]

There is no way in HELL you were inspired by Metal Gear Solid. I can tell.

[Lost in Dream]

Actually infiltrating nightmare might be a good idea. I mean think about it. NiGHTS always takes place in nightopia... so why not a change of scenery?

[Moonlighttrill]

Hmm, invading nightmare and converting the evil nightmaren back into good ones that help you kill wizeman for the third time on his own turf? That would be kinda cool. OR! What if there are mirror worlds? Like "Splash Garden", but when you bet it it becomes nightmare and its "Sunken Abyss", primarily the same level, but with new textures and enemies, and maybe a few small lap changes.

[TRAViS]

Oooh mirror worlds. Like the good future/bad future from Sonic CD? That'd be sick.

I've always wondered what a NiGHTS game would be like if you got to play from both sides of the story, coming together in the game's finale. Like Sonic Adventure 2.

...I'm going to get shot, stabbed, and 'sploded for saying that aren't I?

[Moonlighttrill]

Oooh mirror worlds. Like the good future/bad future from Sonic CD? That'd be sick.

I've always wondered what a NiGHTS game would be like if you got to play from both sides of the story, coming together in the game's finale. Like Sonic Adventure 2.

...I'm going to get shot, stabbed, and 'sploded for saying that aren't I?

if you do we can go together. SA2 is THE BEST SONIC GAME EVER!!!!! and i would love to play as Reala in a villian story maybe 'the great mother' can be the middle villain corrupting both nightmare and dreams. The devourer of all subconscious!!!.

[Lost in Dream]

wow I am starting to like where this is going.