16 replies to this topic

[Kentilan]

I'm sorry if that's not the right place for this topic, I'm not sure where to put this.

It's about Wizeman's page on the main site. Particularly this part:

(Official JP NiD) The ruler of Nightmare-Wizeman, a Visitor deprived of any Ideya, had begun advancing to try and extinguish Nightopia! "If all Ideya are lost, Nightopia will disappear... And my Nightmare will rule over all!'
Wizeman was the first intelligent life in the Night Dimension and the creator of Nightmare.
He created Nightmarens by using his own power. His mysterious power scares Nightmarens. But NiGHTS refuses his order, so he confines NiGHTS in an Ideya palace

It's the bit about Wizeman being a Visitor deprived of Ideya that bothers me, because I'm pretty sure that's wrong.

As far as I know, this text comes from a translation of NiD's Japanese official story, which is also on the website (here, in the section "the plot"); and the original text can be found on NiD's official website.

I'm far from being an expert in Japanese, and I don't know who made the translation, but I'm almost sure the original text says that Wizeman was destroying Nightopia by taking Ideya from Visitors, and doesn't says that he was a Visitor himself.

I know that it''s not really important but I just wanted to point that out. But feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

[Penelopi]

Well, this site says the same thing. Of course, in NiD "Visitor" wasn't defined as a dreamer yet I don't think, so it could mean almost anything as long as it isn't native to the Night Dimension. The Visitor=dreamer idea does bring up possibilities, though. Perhaps that could explain why he feels the need to steal other people's Ideya.

[Kentilan]

Actually, in NiD's Japanese story the dreamers were already refered to as Visitors.
Besides, Wizeman is also stated to have been born in the Night Dimension, so he can't be a visitor.

[Penelopi]

Oh, really? He was born there? I haven't found that.

[Nemoide]

I wonder what Wizeman's mom is like...

[Kentilan]

Oh, really? He was born there? I haven't found that.

The translation just says he was "the first intelligent life in the Night Dimension", but the Japanese text uses the word for "to be born".

[Dex la Cabra]

i noticed that bit too, i didn't like the idea of wizeman being visitor. it meant that behind that big godly exterior was a sleeping, feeble human. probably a ring leader of a circus, he likes jesters and clowns after all

[StarsOfCASSiOPEiA]

I wonder what Wizeman's mom is like...

Oh gosh. Wizeman's Mum... I'm quite frightened. Really. And I thought nothing could be more frightening than Wizeman while you're asleep...

(But I think TRiPPY is having a field day with this one.)

[Penelopi]

The translation just says he was "the first intelligent life in the Night Dimension", but the Japanese text uses the word for "to be born".

Well, I can't read/translate Japanese at all, so I guess I'll just have to take you at your word. It is weird, though. You'd think people would try to translate it with more accuracy. Was the word "Visitor" actually used in the Japanese text?

[Noctourne Wonderland]

I wonder what Wizeman's mom is like...

Wizeman's Great Mother?

Born can be interpreted strictly (literal birth), or loosely (Appearing into something), so perhaps the Japanese were being metaphorical? Plus, JoD rather enjoys calling Wizey a god, and gods can't really be born per say. Also, while dreamers may be called visitors, this could be an instance of all dreamers being visitors, but not all visitors being dreamers. Dreamers need ideya to create Nightopia, according to JoD, so if Wizey were a visitor without ideya, he could not possibly be a dreamer, he'd have to be stuck in limbo (the Dream Gate?) for all eternity. Either that, or he was sent to his own realm, Nightmare. If we do say he was stuck wandering in the Dream Gate, JoD suggests that the purple sea is Nightmare, so perhaps Wizeman jumped into the sea, got his soul shredded, and became who he is.

[Kentilan]

Well, I can't read/translate Japanese at all, so I guess I'll just have to take you at your word. It is weird, though. You'd think people would try to translate it with more accuracy. Was the word "Visitor" actually used in the Japanese text?

Well, it's not exactly inaccurate; I think the translation implies that he was born there.
And yes, the Japanese text uses the word "Visitor", defined as people who visit the dreams.

Born can be interpreted strictly (literal birth), or loosely (Appearing into something), so perhaps the Japanese were being metaphorical? Plus, JoD rather enjoys calling Wizey a god, and gods can't really be born per say.

Yes, I don't think Wizeman was born litteraly; "to be born" can also mean "to start existing". Besides, he can't have a mother if he was the first one, unless his mother wasn't an intelligent life form.

Also, while dreamers may be called visitors, this could be an instance of all dreamers being visitors, but not all visitors being dreamers. Dreamers need ideya to create Nightopia, according to JoD, so if Wizey were a visitor without ideya, he could not possibly be a dreamer, he'd have to be stuck in limbo (the Dream Gate?) for all eternity. Either that, or he was sent to his own realm, Nightmare. If we do say he was stuck wandering in the Dream Gate, JoD suggests that the purple sea is Nightmare, so perhaps Wizeman jumped into the sea, got his soul shredded, and became who he is.

But as I said, as far as I know, nothing actually suggest that Wizeman was a Visitor without Ideya. Besides, you don't need Ideya to dream, you just need them to have a good dream.

[Penelopi]

Nothing really says one way or the other where he came from.

Although -*please don't hit me*- it would make sense if he was a dreamer without Ideya. I had a little theory that he stole other dreamers' Ideya to create his world in Nightmare (because before then it was all just a void he went to since he couldn't go to Nightopia) and eventually changed into what he is now, like how any lucid dreamer might shape their dream and dream appearances. Then he liked his realm in the Night Dimension so much he somehow found a way to stay there forever even after his physical body died. He keeps stealing Ideya to create more. Or perhaps the Ideya's energy runs out when separated from the dreamer it belongs to, so he has to constantly get more Ideya to keep Nightmare running. It would also explain the freak-out about NiGHTS possibly dying at the end of JoD, because he and the other Nightmaren would technically be Wizeman's "dream," so Wizeman expected that everything he made would disappear with him.

But, like I said, it's just my theory. Not any more likely than all the other theories. It sounds like something out of a kid's storybook, really.

[TRiPPY]

Twas translated by a Japanese person so don't eat me : D

[Noctourne Wonderland]

But as I said, as far as I know, nothing actually suggest that Wizeman was a Visitor without Ideya. Besides, you don't need Ideya to dream, you just need them to have a good dream.

Exactly. If you do not have Ideya, you do not have a good dream, so if you dream, but it is not good, it must be bad. A bad dream is a nightmare, so if Wizeman dreamt and had no ideya, resulting in a nightmare, and he was the first to do so, he would have, in escence, created Nightmare, correct?

[Kentilan]

Exactly. If you do not have Ideya, you do not have a good dream, so if you dream, but it is not good, it must be bad. A bad dream is a nightmare, so if Wizeman dreamt and had no ideya, resulting in a nightmare, and he was the first to do so, he would have, in escence, created Nightmare, correct?

I guess that makes sense. Well, as Penelopi said, we don't know much about Wizeman's origins, so...

About that translation, can anyone read Japanese here? I'd like someone else's opinion to see if I'm right or not.
In addition, I think Wizeman's profile on JoD's Japanese website says that there was nothing in the Night Dimension when Wizeman created Nightmare. I'd also like a confirmation of this...

[Dex la Cabra]

Twas translated by a Japanese person so don't eat me : D

lol we shan't

[Nemoide]

Born can be interpreted strictly (literal birth), or loosely (Appearing into something), so perhaps the Japanese were being metaphorical?

The kanji used in the verb for "being born" is the same as "life" so I believe it implies more of a start to life than "coming out of a woman".
(I know this but I just wanted to be silly. )