22 replies to this topic

[Lady Spritzy]

This post has been edited since it's original posting. Anything in italics is edits added later on.
First, what's a good definition for a villain? Not just some bad guy or opposition for the protagonist, but the ultimate evil doer. I've always thought a good definition for a villain would be that if they used their abilities to help instead of hinder, the world would simply be a better place. But anyway, on to what I think would be the best criteria for a villain:
Forsight. They have to be able to plan ahead and guess what their opponants might pull.
Tanacity. They can't give up, and they have to keep coming back.
Threatening. If they aren't, what good are they? Note, this doesn't only apply to looks.
Smart/Intellectual. Even if they aren't Eggman, being plain clever helps. A smart enemy is a deadly one.
Powerful. They have to have the strength to give the protaganist a run for his/her money.
Is a giant thorn in the protaganist's side. C'mon, they have to annoy the protaganist, or else we won't hate them as much.
Has subordinates. More as a symbol of power, showing that they can get others to follow their orders.
Manipulative (Originally Clever). Because your ordinary bad guy wouldn't be able to trick the protaganist with some of the lies that a villain can.
Flexible. Even when things don't go according to plan, they still have an out.
Evil. I've always thought of evil as "doing things for your own gain, and not for others". Thus, taking over the world, stealing money for yourself, et cetera.
Awe-Inspiring. Even though you hate his/her guts, you still respect a villain.
Willing to work with his/her enemies if placed in extreme situations. Being able to put aside differences just long enough to save himself/herself, then get right back to work of trying to destroy the protaganist.
Relatable. A person should almost get to like a villain, or at least sympathise.
Memorable. A good villain should stick in your mind, almost like a parasite.
Has ulterior motives. Whether it be revenge, or they're just mislead by their own skewed take on what's right and wrong, a villain will always have a reason for what they do.


Here's those that have earned the title 'Villain'-
*From Me*
Vlad Plasmeus (Danny Phantom)
Malificent (Kingdom Hearts)
Eggman (Sonic)
Chase Young (Xiolin Showdown)
Evil Bakura (Yu-Gi-Oh!)

*From Zero-Shift*
Megatron (Beast Wars)
Megabyte (Reboot)
Sir Crocodile (One Piece)
Roy Batty (Blade Runner)
Liquid Snake (Metal Gear Solid)
Magneto (X-Men)
Joker (Batman)
Light Yagami (Deathnote)
Akuma (Street Fighter)
Shodan (System Shock)

*From Kentilan*
Wizeman (NiGHTS)

And if you don't think villains really exist, here's one good example of real life- Adolf Hitler.

Please, feel free to add traits, add more people to this list, or question why I've got some of this stuff up here. This is a topic I'd like to discuss.

[Saifer Dracondrali]

an impressive wardrobe...

you can't touch this...

[Kentilan]

Interesting topic. I've got a few commentaries:

Forsight. They have to be able to plan ahead and guess what their opponants might pull.

Smart/Intellectual. Even if they aren't Eggman, being plain clever helps. A smart enemy is a deadly one.

Clever. Because your ordinary bad guy wouldn't be able to trick the protaganist with some of the lies that a villain can.

Flexible. Even when things don't go according to plan, they still have an out.

I've always thought smart and clever meant the same thing
And I think foresight and flexibility are part of being smart...

Awe-Inspiring. Even though you hate his/her guts, you still respect a villain.

Sounds a bit contradictory
And I think whether you hate a villain, or respect him, or both, depends on personal tastes. For example, I tend to respect villains who have a reason for what they do and have some feelings, rather that cold-hearted villains who are evil for the sake of being evil (but then they may not fit your definition of a villain...)

Willing to work with his/her enemies if placed in extreme situations. Being able to put aside differences just long enough to save himself/herself, then get right back to work of trying to destroy the protaganist.

Usually, villains don't do that. They would rather die than teaming up with the heroes. Eggman is a notable exception, but I don't think he's that evil (contrary to Eggman Nega, who once tried to destroy the whole world, including himself, because his plans failed).

Otherwise I kinda agree with the rest of the list, except I'm not sure having subordinates is necessary.

Here's a few characters who I think have earned the title 'Villain'-
Vlad Plasmeus (Danny Phantom)
Malificent (Kingdom Hearts)
Eggman (Sonic)
Chase Young (Xiolin Showdown)

Hey, why is Wizeman not on that list? This is a NiGHTS message board after all, and I think he definitely earned the title.

[Nemoide]

Villains (on a large "super-hero" scale at least) should always believe they are right and doing what is best for the world. To be really effective, they should be able to convince the audience that they might actually BE right. I disagree that his motivations should just be "I'm greedy and therefore want to rule the world" because most folks probably wouldn't even know what they would do with the world once it is taken over.
On a smaller scale, I think villians should at least be understandable. This can make them really terrifying.

When a villian is motivated by some form of love (of an individual, humanity, or the cosmos at large), they become a lot scarier, I think.

[Zero-Shift]

For me, the most important aspect be that a villain is a fully developed, three dimensional character.
If a villain is devoid of personality, it's impossible to care about them one way or the other. Everything else is secondary to personality. I hate those vapid cardboard villains who are evil for the sake of being evil. Carnage from Spiderman almost immediately comes to mind.

Also, often the best villains either act as a foil or dark mirror to the hero. Other nice things to have, but aren't necessary are memorable actions and understandable, even sympathetic motives. An awesome voice never hurt either. The best thing about villains is if they're well written, they are often the most compelling character in whatever they're in. Here in my opinion are some of the best villains/antagonists ever.

Megatron (Beast Wars)
Megabyte (Reboot)
Sir Crocodile (One Piece)
Roy Batty (Blade Runner)
Liquid Snake (Metal Gear Solid)
Magneto (X-Men)
Joker (Batman)
Light Yagami (Deathnote)
Akuma (Street Fighter)
Shodan (System Shock)

[tinfoil]

Villains believe that they're invincible. They only continue since they think that they can't be stopped.

[InTheNightlight]

A villain would be someone that:

Does something for the benefit of the world in their view.(in other words, doing what only they believe. Such as Eggman building Eggman Land. He thinks it'll help the world, when it really doesn't. Or Metal Sonic thinking robots are the only true overlords.)

Makes superheroes give up(like the villains in Spider-Man try to make Spidey quit by attacking and killing people he loves)

And that about it. And if you go by myth, Tails Doll is Sonic's true enemy. ...Just saying...*runs away from nonbelievers with pitchforks*

[Lady Spritzy]

Funmuch stuff to think about. Here’s some fun replies, in order:

To Saifer
YES! Lots of villains seem to be hot (not eggman, persay…) but hey!

To Kentilan
Hmmm… You prolly want some clarifications, huh?
First, when I said ‘foresight’, I meant it to mean that even before a villain starts in on a plan, he/she’s pretty much ready for most anything that might pop up. When I said ‘flexible’, I was going for when a villain’s in trouble, they can get themselves out of it. So, basically, it’s a matter of when.
Second, when I said smart, I meant they know what’s going on around them. However, when I said clever, I meant manipulative. Sorry, bad word choice on my part.
However, I don’t take back the awe-inspiring comment. A good villain is someone you hate to love (to use a horrible cliché) They gain your respect as well as your spite. Thus, the whole “If they weren’t evil” definition…
Anyway, when a villain works with their enemy, it’s for self-preservation. Nothing else. That’s why I put that one in there. Not to mention, each of the people on my list have put aside their differences with their respective protagonists at least once or so. They’d never switch sides completely/at all.
And as for Wizeman, I haven’t quite everybody who has made “Villain” back. For example- Evil Bakura. And no, don’t go off the one from the anime (that sucked). Wizeman’s borderline “Villain”, but he’s hasn’t really had much of a chance to prove himself.

To Nemoide
Hmmm… intriguing thought. Kinda like how Achilles might not actually be a good guy ‘cause he’s such a jerk? I think I’ll contemplate this angle.
Understandable makes sense. Makes it more shocking when a villain’s closer to real people.
However, I’ve never thought of a villain as being run by an emotion such as love… but I’m not quite sure what else it would be…

To Zero-Shift
Heck, 3-D is always good for any character, villain or not. The only thing it’s not good for is Mary Sues. Okay, I admit, cookie-cutter baddies suck. Big time. Best example I can think of right now is probably Jack Spicer from Xialin Showdown. (And thus, why cardboard baddies suck…)
Anyway! When a character’s a foil to the protagonist, I always think of them more as a rival or anti-hero, like Kaiba to Yugi (Yes, I’m a huge Yu-Gi-Oh fan), Shadow to Sonic, or Riku to Sora. Dang, I meant to put memorable in the original list. Thanks for brining that one up. Motives are always important, and if they mirror humanity, it makes it more shocking. And as for your list, I only know Megabyte, Liquid Snake, Magneto, and Joker. And I agree wholeheartedly.

To Tinfoil
Yup. The one downfall to villains, and thus, why they can be taken down. If they knew all their faults and had them covered, the protagonist would have one heck of a time taking them down.

And, finally, to InTheNightlight
Hmmm… bringing us back to the same “doing it for the greater good in their skewed little minds” argument. Why don’t we just call that ulterior motives? So much easier to say.
I do like the thought of a villain trying to break their enemy. Either make ‘em quit, or recruit them.
And as for Tails Doll, ever seen the Sonic Shorts…?

So, in conclusion:
-People got added to the list. Huzzah!
-“Clever” is changed to “Manipulative”
-Gonna go with “Relatable” as being the “Understandable” being added.
-“Memorable” is added, like it was originally supposed to be…
-“Has ulterior motives” is also added, encompassing what kind of motives, as long as the actual motives.

[Kentilan]

And as for Wizeman, I haven’t quite everybody who has made “Villain” back. For example- Evil Bakura. And no, don’t go off the one from the anime (that sucked). Wizeman’s borderline “Villain”, but he’s hasn’t really had much of a chance to prove himself.

Sorry, but could you clarify this? I don't understand the first sentence, and the example you mentioned (Evil Bakura) doesn't help, since I don't know much about him.

[Lady Spritzy]

Sorry, but could you clarify this? I don't understand the first sentence, and the example you mentioned (Evil Bakura) doesn't help, since I don't know much about him.

Sorry, didn't quite come across very clear. My bad.
What I meant to put (but was a little too off to put) was that I didn't have time to put everyone I thought made "Villain" status up on my short list at the top. Those were just a few examples, really. And as for Evil Bakura, I think he's earned the title of "Villain"

[Kentilan]

Oh, I see, thanks. But since you said about Wizeman, "he hasn’t really had much of a chance to prove himself", so what do you think Wizeman is lacking to be a real villain?
Also, shouldn't you edit your first post or something? To keep track of the full list and traits.

[Lady Spritzy]

Oh, I see, thanks. But since you said about Wizeman, "he hasn’t really had much of a chance to prove himself", so what do you think Wizeman is lacking to be a real villain?
Also, shouldn't you edit your first post or something? To keep track of the full list and traits.

Suggestion taken, first post is modified with the lists of the villains added, along with who thought they should go up there, as well as the new/modified trates.

And on to a response, let's take a look at the full list as of now:
Forsight: It's hard to tell whether or not Wizeman can look into a situation before he sends a Nightmaren into it. Since he's lost to NiGHTS as much as he has, without really changing a tactic (in the couple of games that there's been, that is) I'm prolly going to have to say no.

Tanacity: He's got that one, for sure.

Threatening: Yes, he has this one, in looks and manner.

Smart/Intellectual: He's not called Wizeman for nothing, huh. But he's never really doing anything, just having his Maren do so.

Powerful: Yes and no. Yes because he's created Nightmare/the Maren. No because he's lost to one of his own creations. (Then again, it was really only twice, and he hasn't really stepped in)

Is a giant thorn in the protaganist's side: Another yes and no. If he stepped in to do more of the work more often, it would probably be more of a yes.

Has subordinates: While this is kind of a lesser category, yup. Otherwise, there'd be no NiGHTS.

Manipulative: Not really. He can manipulate his Maren, but not his enemies, so it doesn't really count.

Flexible: He hasn't been in enough situations to actually show whether or not he can wriggle his way out of them. But, from what we've seen, no, he can't.

Evil: By the definition I've put (for personal reasons) yes, he is. But then, people have been downplaying this category, so by all means, don't add this one to the tally.

Awe-Inspiring: I'll admit it, Wizeman's got this one in my book. Not only is he awesome to look at, but his manner is amazing.

Relatable: Heck no. No where near human, (but he is the King of Nightmares) and he's too much of a mystery to say enough about him to say "Hey, I like that character for his traits, no matter how grim they may be."

Memorable: Yeah, he's got that one. I mean, how many other floating, decorated, cape wearing behemoths do you come across?

Never mind.

Has ulterior motives: Eh. Haven't really heard enough from him to know whether or not he does. Thus, he hasn't had enough time.

For several of these, I note that he really hasn't had enough screen time (if you can call it that) to show me whether or not he's villain material. Even before I put this topic up, I've been debating in long, tedius arguments as to whether or not I should add Wizeman to the list, and frankly, the poor guy just needs a bit more time to prove himself. However, if SEGA makes another game and does a crappy job of it, it wouldn't really count, would it? Maybe if the list expands, he'll be able to gain the title in my eyes.

[Zero-Shift]

I'm sorry, but I need clarification. Are we talking about what we personally think makes a good villain or just a villain in general? If we're talking about the former, fine, but if we're talking about the latter, then I think your list of qualities is far too excessive. A villain just needs to be a character in fiction who antagonizes the main character and generally causes negative effects to them.

Also, in regards to your response about hero foils. By this notion, would Joker be an anti-hero in the Batman comics? If not, why? Also, I'm pretty sure anybody can be a rival including villains, anti-heroes, and even other heroes.

Oh, and Mary Sues are almost without exception poorly written characters to begin with. Can't say I can ever recall seeing a Mary Sue villain though.

[Lady Spritzy]

I'm sorry, but I need clarification. Are we talking about what we personally think makes a good villain or just a villain in general? If we're talking about the former, fine, but if we're talking about the latter, then I think your list of qualities is far too excessive. A villain just needs to be a character in fiction who antagonizes the main character and generally causes negative effects to them.

Also, in regards to your response about hero foils. By this notion, would Joker be an anti-hero in the Batman comics? If not, why? Also, I'm pretty sure anybody can be a rival including villains, anti-heroes, and even other heroes.

Oh, and Mary Sues are almost without exception poorly written characters to begin with. Can't say I can ever recall seeing a Mary Sue villain though.

Mkay, I'll see what I can do to help clarify.
When I say "Villain", I mean the baddest of the bad. Not just an antagonist, or a baddie, or even that guy that looks funny at the main character. I mean someone who makes you a little scared to go to bed at night because they're out there. So, probably someone you'd call a good villain.

About the foils. I guess there's two kinds of foil, isn't there? One that's out to get rid of the hero, or one that's just trying to compete with the hero. I've never been able to read the Batman comics, but from what I've seen in the cartoon and from Justice League, Joker is definately a Villain, not an anti-hero.

And with the Mary Sue comment I made, it was more to make a point, but that's something I think I want to strive for, a Mary Sue villain... Uh-oh, the wheels are starting to turn...

[Nemoide]

To Nemoide
Hmmm… intriguing thought. Kinda like how Achilles might not actually be a good guy ‘cause he’s such a jerk? I think I’ll contemplate this angle.
Understandable makes sense. Makes it more shocking when a villain’s closer to real people.
However, I’ve never thought of a villain as being run by an emotion such as love… but I’m not quite sure what else it would be…

Achilles isn't a good example I think, more the opposite? If you consider Hector as a villian though, it can work. Hector for instance is given a lengthy scene in which he is with his wife and family. Is he really a villian just because he is on the "wrong" side? (The gods don't think so and protected his corpse from Achilles.)

I don't want to spoil too much but the best example I can think of off the top of my head is the main villian from Escaflowne (whose name escapes me at the moment). His motivation is to help all people and serve humanity in a way he feels is best.
He was just greatly mistaken about some things which, honestly, nobody could have forseen.

My favorite villian is Frank Booth from the movie Blue Velvet (be warned, it is a very intense movie). What is really frightening is that his character is motivated by love but his only ways of expressing it is incredibly twisted. There is something so WRONG about his character that it can make the skin crawl. But at the same time this world is full of people like him and his behavior is very human. He is what lurks in the darkest part of everyone.

In the real world, good and evil are rarely clear. I like it when things present this truthfully. Moral ambiguity ftw?

[Zero-Shift]

I don't want to spoil too much but the best example I can think of off the top of my head is the main villian from Escaflowne (whose name escapes me at the moment). His motivation is to help all people and serve humanity in a way he feels is best.
He was just greatly mistaken about some things which, honestly, nobody could have forseen.

Except Hitomi.

You're talking about Dornkirk. Yeah, those kinds of villain are great too. It's interesting because from a different perspective they may actually be heroes. A little moral ambiguity can go a long way, especially if we end up empathizing with the villain. By the end of Escaflowne I felt sorry for Dornkirk. His intentions were noble, but he became so consumed by his mission by the end.

I personally have a preference for Machiavellian types, hence why Megatron, Crocodile, and Megabyte are my favorites. I find them really enjoyable to watch.

[Lady Spritzy]

I thought of something earlier this morning that might be added to the list, but I want imput from you guys.
Don't good Villains always go out and do some of the dirty work themselves?

[Noctourne Wonderland]

A good villain (pardon the oxymoron) needs to do horrible things and be absolutely convinced that they're right, as stated by Nemoide. Sometiomes, this can make you think that the evil-doer might even be a good guy if read in a different context. My pick for "character that best fits this description"- Cardinal Richlieu from the Three Musketeers. Think, because of the title, we think that the Musketeers are good and the Cardinal is bad. BUT! What if the title was "The Saga of the Cardinal?" Then, we'd think..."hey, this guy just wants to keep France from falling apart. I can't believe those radical Musketeers want to undermine his powers!"

Also, they must have a strong presence, wherther they're actually in the room or not. My example? Man, from Bambi. Man is never seen, but constantly feared. Though we never see Man kill Bambi's mother or burn down the forest, we know Man did it. And, even with Man's omnipresence, Man has an aura of mystery. His Man a Man? Is Man a Woman? Is Man actually a group of men, plural, all doing the nefaious deeds? No one really knows.

Finally, as stated before, a villain must look the part. Look at the pictures below. Who makes you more frightened, the towering, ominous Maleficent, with devil horns and bat wings?



(Yes, I know, that's na particularly creepy pic of Maleficent. But still, consider it "Dramatic Effect")

Or, are you genuinely afraid of Mad Madam Mim, who looks more like the crazy old cat lady from down the street?

[Mitsuu]

The greatest villain ever created is Knives from Trigun. But not the Knives from the anime, though still a good villain he's just not nearly as good as the manga version. Knives is frikkin' awesome.

Here's a pic of Knives near the end of the series.

[Dark Magician]

It's kind of hard for me to define what a good villain is, so I'll say what type of villains leave the biggest impression on me: Villains who could have been heroes if they made different choices or if they were the main character or villains who can sincerely give you nightmares just because they give off the evil vibe (no not the Dr. Doom "evil for evil's sake" type, the Maleficent, Dahlia Hawthorne, etc kind). Sorry if that was too vague...

The most memorable villain in my book was Sephiroth once upon a time, but he was replaced by Kazutaka Muraki from the shojo series Yami no Matsuei (Descendents of Darkness). In the series, demons and Shinigami have the most power in the world... but this guy is a plain old human and manages to make both sides sweat bullets.

This is a link to his picture...
<a href="http://www.vamppire.com/snowdrop/muraki/5.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.vamppire.com/snowdrop/muraki/5.jpg</a>

[iLLViLLAiN]

"Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Thought it was relevant. Carry on.

[Lady Spritzy]

Lol definitely Dahlia Hawthorne from Phoenix Wright 3.

If I may be the stickler my English teacher is... why?