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how to make your own fan-Maren? guide? UPDATED


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#41
NNR07

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I don't think anything that can be called a "Mary-Sue" is good. Mary-Sue is never supposed to be a good thing. The problem is this:

Just like the name "emo" originally beginning as an insult but then being commandered by emos as a compliment or a style, the name "Mary-Sue" has also been commandered by some as a compliment or a label for ALL fan characters. Not all fan characters are to be Mary-Sues. Only bad ones. XD


I'm not saying that being called a Mary-Sue is good, no no no. But, no characters are -Sue free. Every character has -Sue in them, usually a very small amount that is undetectable by most artists/writers, no offense. Some marens here basically are -Sue free. Maybe there is one or two quality that a -Sue might have, but who cares? Most of them are not a -Sue.

Actually, some people have done themselves or famous characters (such as Superheros or real-life people) in a Mary-Sue Litmus Test and they've come out as Mary-Sues. Bono from U2. Superman. I've seen a lot of them. It's all based on one's opinion. The only fact is the character's personality, name, etc.

Yes, not all fan-characters are Mary-Sues, but a Mary-Sue isn't necessarily bad, nor good (keep in mind, this is all my opinion ^_^ ). It really depends. I've seen -Sues that came out OK. Some are better than others, that's all. Also, calling a fan-character a Mary-Sue is kinda general, imo. Are they a Mary-Sue because they are super strong? Those kinda -Sues I don't really like. But, if they are a -Sue simpily because they have one or two cliches, or they have the same personality as their owner/dreamer, then I don't think that is necessarily right to put them down or call the character a Mary-Sue :/. Again, it's all based on opinion. Most of the stuff in my guide someone will disagree with sometime along the line. I disagree with the 'i' thing. I like it. It's not cliched to me. But, there are people that right away say "OMG SUSPi IS A MARY-SUE!" because of the lowercase 'i' thing or because he has most of my personality (but SUSPi is like.... really weak and unpopular. By the end of my story, a lot of people still don't like him. But, some people will say he's a Mary-Sue just because 2 out of 100 cliches are applied to him :/.). You really have to dig into a character and their story before labeling them. That's how stereotypes are made; People judging right away :/.

Not all -Sues are bad. Just, most of them are XD.

However, I do see your point. I'm two-sided with Mary-Sues, really. I understand both sides and point-of-views of Mary-Sues. Some find it fun to write Mary-Sues, other hate them.

#42
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The rules of -Sue do state that if a character has pretty much of the same personality as the person who created it, that is a giant chunk of -Sue. because that is the person trying to insert themselves into the story, so that's not "happens to have" the same personality. That's bad -Sueism. XD

I wouldn't say something's a Mary-Sue based entirely on a couple of appearance cliches. There's only so much you can do with eyes and a mouth and no nose, I always said. But it is mostly such things as:

Oh, yeah, my nightmaren is NiGHTS' lost twin sister and she's actually in the game, see when you fight Wizeman! and she's stronger than NiGHTS is! And she marries Reala. And She created the rest of the Nightmaren and Wizeman took credit for it. And Wizeman is this creature called a Nightmare Shabadoo that I made up that are just like Nightmaren but NOT!

Steer clear of that crap and you're good to go. XD

#43
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The rules of -Sue do state that if a character has pretty much of the same personality as the person who created it, that is a giant chunk of -Sue. because that is the person trying to insert themselves into the story, so that's not "happens to have" the same personality. That's bad -Sueism. XD

XD Well, that's kinda the reason why I made SUSPi not 100% like me. He's similar, but not quite. Morals are different, he's a lot more violent blah blah blah. More nightmaren....

...yes, people probably think he's a -SuE ._.'''! Ah well, at least he's not super-strong. He's weak >>!

Edit: Actually, giving SUSPi my/something-close-to-my personality was not to insert myself into the story, but just because I wanted a maren nearly exactly like me. Something I could relate to easier. But, meh, I'm sure none of you give a sh!t about it, it's still -Sueism in your books, so.... I'll shut up now XD.

Oh, yeah, my nightmaren is NiGHTS' lost twin sister and she's actually in the game, see when you fight Wizeman! and she's stronger than NiGHTS is! And she marries Reala. And She created the rest of the Nightmaren and Wizeman took credit for it. And Wizeman is this creature called a Nightmare Shabadoo that I made up that are just like Nightmaren but NOT!

Steer clear of that crap and you're good to go. XD

Yay, that sounds NOTHING like SUSPi XD. XDD Wizeman the Shabadoo.

Anyway, I'll put up the next section later.....

#44
Tashayarna

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LMDAO "Bono from U2"

lol I mean people could say that your SUSPi is a mary-sue, because of the "nobody likes him thing" as with most mary-sue's, they are either like really happy, or have really depressing back stories and no one likes them

or both! they have a super special awsome emo back story but are super cheerful out of context all the time(LMDAO poor Shannon ^^; )

anywhoo Purg....... Wizeman the Shabadoo.....O_O......*laughs until I cries*

#45
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LMDAO "Bono from U2"

lol I mean people could say that your SUSPi is a mary-sue, because of the "nobody likes him thing" as with most mary-sue's, they are either like really happy, or have really depressing back stories and no one likes them

or both! they have a super special awsome emo back story but are super cheerful out of context all the time(LMDAO poor Shannon ^^; )

anywhoo Purg....... Wizeman the Shabadoo.....O_O......*laughs until I cries*

Yes. Bono. They said it was because of the love interest XD.

I lovies U2 :D!

Anyway, SUSPi isn't totally liked, nor totally hated. I mean, he has a few friends. Just some people hate him to death. But, meh. I don't care as much if people call him a mary-sue. And, I don't feel like arguing anymore XD.

XD Yes, happy characters with emo back stories. That sounds a bit like me (not SUSPi for once XD) >> (except I'm not emo. yay.). Maybe I'M A MARY-SUE D:! SOMEONE HELP ME! XD *shot*

Anyway, is there anything in particular about the maren-sue guide you'd like me to discuss/add? I'd be happy to ^^! I'm still gonna go into more depth about SUSPi's Maren-Sue Characteristics and why he's not 100% a Maren-Sue (He's like 35% or 45% ^_^). Personally, though, I don't think you'll have a problem about accidentally making a Maren-Sue. It seems you've avoided half of the mistakes I did/was on the course of doing :P.

#46
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The rules of -Sue do state that if a character has pretty much of the same personality as the person who created it, that is a giant chunk of -Sue. because that is the person trying to insert themselves into the story, so that's not "happens to have" the same personality. That's bad -Sueism. XD


What you're describing is a classic sub-species of Sueism... the self-insertion. And s/he doesn't have to be 100% alike either. To be "fair" though, it's also possible to have a character that's not like you at all and still have a Mary Sue. I know because I used to have them XD

I wouldn't say something's a Mary-Sue based entirely on a couple of appearance cliches. There's only so much you can do with eyes and a mouth and no nose, I always said.


Yeah, the litmus tests always felt more like a list of symptoms to me: if there's a lot of them the character is likely to be a Sue, but they in themselves aren't the cause of Sueism. There's also the little problem that they're not made for fan-villians - one of my biggest Sues got ridiculously low points ^_^

But it is mostly such things as:

Oh, yeah, my nightmaren is NiGHTS' lost twin sister and she's actually in the game, see when you fight Wizeman! and she's stronger than NiGHTS is! And she marries Reala. And She created the rest of the Nightmaren and Wizeman took credit for it. And Wizeman is this creature called a Nightmare Shabadoo that I made up that are just like Nightmaren but NOT!

Steer clear of that crap and you're good to go. XD


XD It's very obvious then. A few really simple "rules" I found long ago went like this:

1. Is the character hijacking the spotlight/roles from the original characters? The one Purg made up is a obvious example of this. Another example would be if a story is said to be about all the characters, but the focus is kept on the Sue.
2. Can you get away with it? If it's well-written and/or explained in a way that makes sense you can get away with a lot of stuff. This "rule" also goes for anything that's not in canon - if it wasn't there, be prepared to explain why we never heard about it.

There's probably things I missed, so feel free to poke at me.

Watch me take things to seriously, weee!

#47
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Yeah, the litmus tests always felt more like a list of symptoms to me: if there's a lot of them the character is likely to be a Sue, but they in themselves aren't the cause of Sueism. There's also the little problem that they're not made for fan-villians - one of my biggest Sues got ridiculously low points ^_^

Bingo! That's the problem I seemed to have.

What you're describing is a classic sub-species of Sueism... the self-insertion. And s/he doesn't have to be 100% alike either. To be "fair" though, it's also possible to have a character that's not like you at all and still have a Mary Sue. I know because I used to have them XD


XD The self-insertion thing is starting to become a bit confusing to me when it comes to my fan-maren. I did base my maren's personality off of mine, but not to self-insert myself and make me look awesome. Just because it sounded easier to relate to him, fun, and cool. But I'm slowly starting to feel like it doesn't really feel like he's like me sometimes. Then again, most people I ask claim SUSPi isn't a Mary-Sue. Meh >>! It's just one thing. The other things have very little to no relation with SUSPi (being super strong, everyone is his friend, having no friends, everyone loves him, everyone hates him then loves him, everyone loves him at the end, blah blah blah. All 6 have nothing to do with him.).

Bah, I worry too much. 3/4ths of this post is devoted to SUSPi again XD.

Again, I'll try to get back on-topic of the above post I did...:

Should I make a little test at the end of the guide to see how your maren rates on the Maren-Sue level? Speaking of which, does anyone know DB's website address? I know her site is down, but it might be on archives and I can read through her guides.....

#48
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Avoiding Maren-Sue Creation [cont.]

Section 4.:

Looks.:

- Here's a thing that tends to happen to a lot of people, hell even myself.: Creating a maren that looks like NiGHTS. Again, it is your maren. It's your choice, but be aware that making a maren look similar to NiGHTS tends to be a bit.... well.... cliched. (I'll have a list of cliches below.) However, I suggest if you're taking NiGHTS and Reala's design, change it up. Bend their horns. Maybe make the maren taller. Or shorter. Maybe their horns are closer to their body. Maybe one of their horns is broken. Maybe they're missing an eye.

- I admit, I chose the NiGHTS design. I changed colors, made a completely new design for SUSPi, changed horn lengths (they're much shorter, especially because SUSPi is a lot younger than NiGHTS), and made other minor changes.

- If you choose not to use the NiGHTS design, be my guest. It's encouraged by some (not entirely me, however). I can't help you here, though. Choose something nightmare-ish. Something that'd scare a human out of their wits. Sharp fangs. Blood dripping down them. A mad thirst for flesh and blood. Make them a lot stronger than dreamers, BUT NOT TOO STRONG (see above)!

-It's suggested if you use the NiGHTS design, to include this.:
- Hair. Long or short. It doesn't matter.
- Horns. All NiGHTS-looking marens have some form of horns.
- Sharp fangs.
- They can shape-shift (see below).
- They have elaborate clothing.
- (more to come here later)

- Keep in mind, marens can shape shift. If you choose a humanoid maren, your maren will not always look like a humanoid maren. Look at NiGHTS and his morphs. Bobsled. Mermaid. Dragon. Rocket. NiGHTS can morph into anything his heart desires. So can other marens. It's a dream; A maren has nearly all control over it.

- (This section to be edited more soon.)

Section5.:

Cliches

- Below is a list of cliches that most marens do/easily fall victim for. Remember, though, it's not the cliche that's bad, it's how much it's used. Think about it. The 'i' thing is used a lot, opposed to all marens having yellow and red. The 'i' thing is not accepted by as many, while marens having yellow and red is. This still confuses me a bit, but understand I am not bashing any of the cliches below, including the one's I just mentioned. I'm just pointing them out for your reference. Also, I will explain for example whether SUSPi falls for the cliche or not, to give a better example.

- Cliche #1.: Lowercase 'i'.: Done the most. NiGHTS has all his letters capatilized, ACCEPT the 'i'. Why so? No one knows. Cliched? Oh, yes. Most fan-marens do this. I personally find little-to-nothing wrong with it. It's unique. Only one canon maren does it, yes, so it's not over cliched throughout the game. Just the fandom.

Does SUSPi fall for this cliche? If you have eyes, and can spell, you should notice that right away :/. XD

- Cliche #2.: Humanoid Marens.: Again, I find little wrong with this cliche. But, some of the fandom does not agree with Humanoid Marens. Please note, when I say Humanoid Marens, I mean something that looks like NiGHTS with a new suit on. And maybe skin/eye change. I like this cliche, personally, even though it is overdone. Use this at your own risk.

Does SUSPi fall for this? Yes, and no. He doesn't look exactly like NiGHTS (nor acts like him), but he does look dangerously similar to NiGHTS in some ways, and by some people's opinions. It all depends on opinion, which all of this guide is about. Maren-Sues are all based ON OPINION. One person may find one person a Maren-Sue, while another rates them 0% maren-Sue.

-Cliche #3.: Rebelling Marens.: Everyone wants their maren to be like NiGHTS :D. No no no. The only maren that even had one thought of rebellion is NiGHTS. No others wanted a part in his idea (well, at least in the canon universe). Since nearly all marens have no free-will what-so-ever, your maren should be considered like a villian, no matter how cute he/she looks. A maren is bent on stealing an Ideya, not making friends with dreamers.

Does SUSPi? No. He loves Wizeman (until towards the very end. But he still likes him a bit, even so.). He hates nearly all dreamers. HE HATES YOU ALL XD.

-Cliche #4.: Marens love dreamers.: Think about it. Why would a maren want to befriend YOU XD. No offense, but the only dreamer a maren would like is probably their own dreamer, MAYBE. Most marens hate dreamers to death. They're sadists. Look at Jackle. He has a guiatine (sp?). I bet he loves cutting human heads off >>! Reala hates dreamers. Wizeman hates dreamers. The only maren who might like all dreamers EVEN A LITTLE is probably NiGHTS. I must admit, I haven't seen this one a lot. But, imo, it's one of the worst >>!

Does SUSPi fall for it? No. He hates you all XD. He only stands up for/loves a very slim few.

-Cliche #5.: Your maren can take on Reala and/or Wizeman with one poke.: No he/she can't. Reala and NiGHTS are the strongest of all marens. Reala should be able to beat anyone, save for NiGHTS, to a pulp, unless your maren has a real lot of endurance and can withstand a lot of pain. Of course, that kinda fight would take several dozen hours, and the winner would just barely make it in one piece.

Wizeman, however, would probably barbecue your maren in a matter of minutes. It's near impossible.

Does SUSPi? Nope. He's pretty weak XD. Reala always manages to beat SUSPi to a pulp ;-;! Wizeman always breaks SUSPi's limbs and bones. But, SUSPi doesn't get tortured every five minutes. But it does happen monthly or so >>!

That's all for now. More later....

EDIT: 200th Post ^_^! PRAISE ME XD.

#49
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Josse, lots of good points there!

NNR, don't worry, I wasn't saying SUSPi was a Sue. XD

#50
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NNR, don't worry, I wasn't saying SUSPi was a Sue. XD

XD Ok. Although, I think we gotta admit, he does have some -Sue qualities >>!

#51
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XD Ok. Although, I think we gotta admit, he does have some -Sue qualities >>!

Who's characters don't, really. ^^; Purgatory is pretty damned detached. As far as his story goes, he was just some worker bee, delivering fear to Wizeman and completely unimportant, really. He decided he liked the "taste" and kept it for himself. Something crappy happened to him and he got transported out of Nightmare and out of Nightopia completely and no one really remembers him. I don't think he draws attention away from any main characters. XD But if I did one of those tests, I'm sure there would be something.

I think I remember a few questions on the Sue tests I've seen being totally bad to rank even canon Nightmaren. XD Like what type of name they're given, unnatural eye colours and other such things. You really gotta dig in there if you want to genuinely apply the rules of Sueism to a fan 'maren or even a canon one.

#52
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I think I remember a few questions on the Sue tests I've seen being totally bad to rank even canon Nightmaren. XD Like what type of name they're given, unnatural eye colours and other such things. You really gotta dig in there if you want to genuinely apply the rules of Sueism to a fan 'maren or even a canon one.

XD That's another reason why I'm creating this guide (and maybe a little test thing at the end). On one of the test, it says to not count a question if it's normal/canon in the creatures universe, but.... some things are just confusing on the tests when it comes to fan-marens :D .

Oh, and, I agree, Purg is very far from being a Sue :3. Purg's definitely not a Sue.

#53
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Wizeman, however, would probably barbecue your maren in a matter of minutes.

Or just *SPLAT!* flatten you with his hand XD

I wish I could remember the link to a Harry Potter MS-test. It didn't equal, say, having purple eyes to dying to save everyone. Instead it was more like purple eyes = 100 points and dying = 10000. It was more forgiving for the things most people sees as Sues, so neither SUSPi nor Purg would've have ranked very high there. However, one of my characters would've ranked "Sue" since she (before I remade her) basically stole the spotlight from the main characters ;)

#54
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Or just *SPLAT!* flatten you with his hand XD

I wish I could remember the link to a Harry Potter MS-test. It didn't equal, say, having purple eyes to dying to save everyone. Instead it was more like purple eyes = 100 points and dying = 10000. It was more forgiving for the things most people sees as Sues, so neither SUSPi nor Purg would've have ranked very high there. However, one of my characters would've ranked "Sue" since she (before I remade her) basically stole the spotlight from the main characters ;)

XDD Ouchies.

I think I saw the Harry Potter MS-Test sometime recently when I was doing a few. Maybe I'll try it, but I'm not in a Mary-Sue Test-Taking Mode TM XD.

#55
MidgitLD

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Doesn't anyone here even know where the term "Mary Sue" came from? As in the very original term?

Please direction your attention to this here Wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

#56
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having purple eyes to dying to save everyone. Instead it was more like purple eyes = 100 points and dying = 10000.


LMDAO ;); My poor ShannonKiel has purple eyes ^_^; lol and he dies! LOL ^_^; oh dear poor sue-ish Shannon ^_^;

#57
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Doesn't anyone here even know where the term "Mary Sue" came from? As in the very original term?

Please direction your attention to this here Wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Yes, LD, I know because I'm dating a former Trekkie and as soon as I possibly could, I made her dump all her Star Trek books/story crap into two big ol' garbage bags and sell them to a used book store. :P Pretty sure it included that one. I remember when she told me of the horror.

#58
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Oh yes, I know were the term came from... but the concept itself have been around for longer than that, as evident by the links in the article :P

#59
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This is going to sound stupid but I always saw a Maren-sue as the:

Pretty female Humaren that has all the male Maren *coughcoughNiGHTSRealacoughcough* and is always 1st rank and acts like a Princess....Or something close to that.

But I havent really seen any of those Sues for awhile now...hmmm, oh well.

#60
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This is going to sound stupid but I always saw a Maren-sue as the:

Pretty female Humaren that has all the male Maren *coughcoughNiGHTSRealacoughcough* and is always 1st rank and acts like a Princess....Or something close to that.

But I havent really seen any of those Sues for awhile now...hmmm, oh well.

Sounds like a 'Sue! :P:lol:
A former friend of mine had a Mary-Sue like that, except it was Dragon Ball Z. SHeesh, even in NiGHTS people can royally screw up and think they have the coolest character.

#61
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Yes, yes they can, lol. To tell the truth, I even went so far as to make one when I first became a NiD fan.

#62
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I guess not everyone really knows what they've done when they do it. XD
At least with these guide things and commentary, people can leaf through and maybe form something good. And hopefully not an anti-sue.

#63
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I guess not everyone really knows what they've done when they do it. XD
At least with these guide things and commentary, people can leaf through and maybe form soemthing good. And hopefully not an anti-sue.

XD
Yay for the guides :3. That's the master plan, Purg, a breed of super good fan-marens >3!

...

AND NO ANTI-SUES!

:3

#64
The wise Kitsune

The wise Kitsune

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I have a question for you guys... Is my maren Mary-Sue?

Mindoe

Ok...lemmie clear this up first, Mindoe is neither good or evil. She is neutral. She questioned wiseman, but doesnt want to help dreamers. She is nice to dreamers. Thats all. She has SOME resembalance of NiGHTS but is it mary sue-ish? Im still working on colors. I think the color pallete will be based on my fave. colors: Purple,pink,red,blue and because of her ideya, green.


Pics:
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x26/Dan...iNDOEbyminn.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x26/Dan...rent=MiNDOE.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x26/Dan...indoecolorz.jpg
http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x26/Dan...mindoeideya.jpg

Please be honest!!!




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