27 replies to this topic

[Beautiful Nightmare]

Before anything else... Yes, I know NiGHTS is genderless, and yes, I know you know it too. However, many people still see her as a boy(or girl) in their heads, and this thread is for the people who see her as a "he".

Okay... I'm pretty sure I'll probably be flamed for this thread, but I cannot take it anymore. I need to understand this:

How the fu*k can you look at a flamboyant jester who uses a purple and pink outfit, have big eyelashes, a slender and non-muscular body, a female voice, and every other feminine archetype known to mankind... And see a boy?!
By the way, I understand that NiGHTS can be considered a VERY gay/feminine guy, but giving the fact that we can see her as either gender(inside our heads), it isn't more logical to see her as, instead of a very feminine guy, just a female already?

So that's it. I just want to understand why/how so many people see it as a guy.
Personaly, I think some people wanted it to be a guy, for whataver reason, and put in their heads that it was a guy(in a type of self mental conditioning) until they saw it like that. Why? Because I cannot understand for the life of me, how anyone could look at that very feminine creature for the first time, and naturally think "It's a boy". I just can't understand it.

So please, tell me what is so friggin masculine about the character. What is there that I'm not seeing?

Thankyou.

[TORiAS_the_fallen]

First off, did you play JoD first? If so, then, I can understand why you think this...

BUT

NiD, there was no voice for NiGHTS. And its chracteristics were less feminine. Also, NiGHTS actions aren't as so completely feminine as you seem to think. There are some very masculine traits to NiGHTS that, if you play the games again thinking young boy I believe you will see. Er, unless you "wanted it to be a girl, for whataver reason, and put in their heads that it was a girl(in a type of self mental conditioning) until they saw it like that."

Just a reminder not to be so rude.

This is a valid topic, and I'm not a moderator, but I don't want you to get in trouble. Believe me, I've been in trouble before and it's not fun.

[Beautiful Nightmare]

First off, did you play JoD first? If so, then, I can understand why you think this...

Unfortunately I couldn't play NiD when it came out, but I saw many videos of it at the time, and allways saw NiGHTS as a girl(slender and non-muscular body, pink on it's clothes, big eyelashes... It was all there from the start, dude).

BUT

NiD, there was no voice for NiGHTS. And its chracteristics were less feminine.

Less feminine how? Why do you think so? Could you be a little more specific?

Also, NiGHTS actions aren't as so completely feminine as you seem to think. There are some very masculine traits to NiGHTS that, if you play the games again thinking young boy I believe you will see. Er, unless you "wanted it to be a girl, for whataver reason, and put in their heads that it was a girl(in a type of self mental conditioning) until they saw it like that."

Just a reminder not to be so rude.

1) Again with the vagueness... What "very masculine traits" do you see in the character? Show me.

2) I didn't want to be rude or disrespect anyone, I just expressed my opinion about something I don't understand(and I clearly said that I didn't understand it). But sorry if I offended anyone.

3) Well, I wasn't talking about NiGHTS actions perse, only the way she looks and sounds. So it looks like your rude and smartass comeback failed miserably. But nice try.

This is a valid topic, and I'm not a moderator, but I don't want you to get in trouble. Believe me, I've been in trouble before and it's not fun.

Thankyou for the support dude. And again, I didn't want to offend anyone, it was only my personal opinion of something I have little understanding about.
That's why I am here... To try understanding why other people see it differently.

[Nemoide]

Well, I think the character is hermaphroditic, by I default to male pronouns.
The "feminine archetypes" you mention are culturally relative. Female voice aside (I STILL haven't played JoD), all of those attributes have been related to masculinity at various times in history. Before World War II, pink used to be a boy-color. Purple was traditionally associated with kings. In ancient Egypt, men would very commonly wear makeup around their eyes. Jesters, however, are generally associated with men. NiGHTS' style of dress is reminiscent of centuries past; keep in mind that in the early 1700s, it was considered TOTALLY MANLY for aristocrats to wear frilly clothes and high-heel shoes.

It's not that the character is especially masculine, it's just that there's nothing solidly proving that NiGHTS is one gender or another.

And don't say it's more "logical" to see the character as female. NiGHTS has never been about "logic." And, like TORiAS, I get the feeling like you're an inch away from straight-up trolling.

[TORiAS_the_fallen]

Win some, loose some.

I'm not saying there isn't evidence of NiGHTS being more 'feminine,' but, if you want to get into details, I am completly willing to discuss the nuances.

Lack of embelishment on the clothing from NiD. More embelishment in the clothing is a more 'feminine' trait found in JoD. And I wasn't around to play NiD either, I only have it now, because I make an effort to competely immerse my self in a game culture if I am going to be part of the fandom.

NiGHTS isn't particularly 'shy.' I know that you are going to respond 'not all women are shy,' but NiGHTS deals in archetypes. If NiGHTS were completley 100% female in personality, NiGHTS would just do what Wizeman said because NiGHTS would not have a backbone. NiGHTs bravery is also male, as, archetypically, bravey is a 'male' trait, at least in the 'I'm going to rush head long into this' sense; like Link, from The LoZ.

I am not saying NiGHTS is one or the other, rather, I believe NiGHTS is both, just as a normal person has male and female aspects to their personality. For example, you clearly mistook me as male, when I can garuntee you that I am female, physically. NiGHTS represents that in all of us.

Historically, Nemoide is right. The friliness and flambouancy of NiGHTS's costume is due to period constuming. Historically, jesters wore flamboyant clothing as part of their acts. As NiGHTS is modeled after a jester, flamboyant actions and dress are only to be expected.

If you're here to learn, I gauge you've learned something already.

Being rude gets you nothing but rudeness in return, ergo, my attempt at snarkiness.

[infractus]

I think, perhaps, you could have worded your initial argument with a little less bitterness on the subject, 'Nighmare... maybe with a little more compare and contrast. What makes for a feminine demeanor, what makes for masculinity?

I don't know why you care so much about what other people perceive. I thought individual perspectives is what made exchanging of ideas, fan art, stories interesting around here...


Also, know that I'm willing to lock this subject at the drop of a hat.
No hating, no trolling.

[SmashQueen]

Now before I ramble, I would like to point out that I call NiGHTS a 'he' because, like Nemoide, I default to male pronouns.

Now, NiGHTS is a jester. He's supposed to wear colorful clothing. As well, NiGHTS doesn't exactly seem frightening now does s/he? (Unless you can somehow imagine him/her that way.) Well, makes sense considering the Maren's stance against Wizeman and the fact that NiGHTS needed to be approachable by players and not scare the bejeezus out of them. Aside from that, his scheme can also be compared and contrasted to Reala's outfit which has a more 'malevolent mime' feel than carefree jester. There's more talk of what NiGHTS and Reala represent that could be had, but I'm sure that info could be found within the right topics (which unfortunately I do not know where they are atm).

I can't really delve into this topic comfortably, so I'll just leave on this note: There's no real logic in dreams.

[Noctourne Wonderland]

I was too annoyed to comment here earlier, but Nemoide has said basically everything I would have, yet more articulate.

Now, where do you go about thinking the men can't be slender? I and pretty much all of my male friends are slender, yet I don't assume they're girls. Also, define "every other feminine archetype known to mankind." The fact that you'd go out of you way to make it bold, italicized, and underlined while attempting not to look like a troll must make it fairly important.

As for someone "putting the idea in people's heads," I first saw NiGHTS absolutely stripped of context in Sonic Adventure, and thought it was a guy. Unless, of course, Sega has subliminal messaging geniuses designing the game.

[charlie]

How the fu*k can you

I hate to say this but how can you expect to have a meaningful conversation when you're that disrespectful?? It upsets me because a great community like this can be tarnished by posts like that.

Personally I've never seen NiGHTS as a he or a she; I've always viewed NiGHTS as genderless, although I would say "he" in a sentence simply because it's easier.

[viperxmns]

NiGHTS is well balanced to be quite androgynous, and as others said maybe in JoD he comes across as more feminine. Maybe it's just my personal view as a male, calling certain things male even when they don't necessarily have a gender, but I dunno..

Back to describing his androgynous features, he has slender hips, which is a more masculine trait, while he does have those eyelashes, which come across as more feminine. His style of dress can be seen as more masculine, though the color scheme may be more associated with the feminine.

In NiD the voice you hear come out of him sounded more like a young boy. In JoD it's outright female.

[DiGi Valentine]

How the fu*k can you look at a flamboyant jester.... *snip*... see a boy?!

I tell you what i find absurd.
You starting this topic and claiming it's because you want to understand why others see NiGHTS as a different gender and yet you begin your first post with a tone like that.

To me, this topic does not say this person wants to learn about peoples reasons for seeing NiGHTS differently. It's saying to me YOU have YOUR opinion and it's a complete mind-f*** as to why anyone else should see NiGHTS differently to you.

I'm keeping this thread open because perhaps you might actually learn something but staff have my permission to close it down should it get out of hand.

Sorry to everyone else for any drama here. We are still SEGA's number 1 friendliest community, i assure you

[Chao Freak 1]

I've never actually thought about why I see NiGHTS as one gender more so than another, but I was a fan of NiGHTS years before JoD. Not since '96, but still, way before. As said, NiGHTS was less feminine in the older game. He really had not much of a voice either.

I really can, not wanting to, but see NiD NiGHTS and JoD NiGHTS as two completely different characters. When I see a picture of '96 NiGHTS, there is no way in hell that his new voice would fit. JoD however, does somewhat work.

For proportions, I can see how there is easily a mix between female and male traits. For male, slender hips, wide/large chest area, but no boobz, bigger arms too. For female, his legs, and famous buttox, and eyelashes (Which are way more noticable in JoD mind you.)

[Dark Magician]

NiGHTS doesn't have a specific gender. As for the reason why I refer to NiGHTS with a male pronoun... I can't really say, since I default to them. However, his broad shoulders and small hips could have helped influence the decision.

As everyone else said earlier, NiGHTS is a jester (which explains the flamboyant costume) and is supposed to represent something in the human subconscious that is both male and female. Also, just because someone looks very pretty doesn't necessarily mean that the person is a girl (heck, anime and some real-life people seem to get a kick out of that).

[Penelopi]

I thought of NiGHTS more in masculine terms early on, but as time has gone on and he/she's exhibited more feminine traits in my dreams, I've come to see him more evenly gendered, but I still tend to call him a he. I had two impressions when I first took a close look at a picture of him, the one on his Wiki page: 1. he's impish, like a little mischievous boy 2. I felt like I'd seen him before. The deja-vu is irrelevant, but yeah, my first impression was "guy" because of his expression and his clothes. Disregarding the color, the style of the collar, vest, and sleeves is what I've seen on men in movies, books, etc depicting 1800s/Victorian/whatever older settings.

When I played the game, the voice did make him/her seem more feminine at first, but his movements in the actual gameplay screamed "guy" to me. His motions just look like a guy's to me, somehow. I think they may have used a male swimmer for the motion capture or something.

Also, some people are saying long eyelashes are feminine, and I often think this way, too, but that is contendable. Tweety Bird from Looney Tunes is a guy but has those huge eyelashes. My Mom has told me several times when I was a kid that boys usually have longer eyelashes than girls, for whatever reason. I've never checked up on this fact, but it is an interesting opinion/maybe-fact to note.

[Noctourne Wonderland]

Also, some people are saying long eyelashes are feminine, and I often think this way, too, but that is contendable. Tweety Bird from Looney Tunes is a guy but has those huge eyelashes. My Mom has told several times when I was a kid that boys usually have longer eyelashes than girls, for whatever reason. I've never checked up on this fact, but it is an interesting opinion/maybe-fact to note.

I was told the same thing.

[TORiAS_the_fallen]

It's true. Someone above was talking about beautiful guys in anime/manga/games.

Bishi are intentionally goregeous. Just look at Cecil Harvey in Dissidia.

[Bonzi77]

You know, it's funny. Despite the negative tone of the op, I've always held an opinion similar to this, but not entirely the same. While I agree that NiGHTS is androgynous, I have always personally referred to NiGHTS as a she. He simply comes off as feminine to me. But in that case, I think it's a matter of opinion, and how you view NiGHTS as an individual. If you see NiGHTS as feminine, he's a she. If you see him as a male, or if you can see both sides of the coin, he's a he. While I myself see and understand that he's androgynous, he's always been female to me.

I call him a he on the boards for the sake of consistency and to not confuse the hell out of everyone, but rest assured, NiGHTS is a she to me, and he has been since I was 6.

[BHSoren]

My very first thought upon seeing NiGHTS for the first time was "i dunno lol," then once I played JoD I was leaning toward female. After thinking more into it however I've decided to (perhaps rightfully) place myself in the neutral. I can see how NiGHTS can be either or and that's exactly how NiGHTS is supposed to be viewed. Personally, I say "he" when talking about "him," but yeah. I think that's one of the absolute most interesting/fun things about the character, that he can be whatever you want him to be. It adds to the magic of it all.

I think it's silly to see NiGHTS one way and get upset at people who see him differently when he's really neither one nor the other. Acceptance is a beautiful thing.

[GIGA-XISBASS VISITOR]

I Personally See NIGHTS as Male and Female. Male One Moment Female the Next.

[MOONLiGHTDEWZ]

I became very angry when I read that first post and I only got two thrids of the way through it before I had to stop. I almost left but thanks to TORiAS the fallen, Nemoide, infractus, SmashQueen, Noctourne Wonder, charlie, viperxmns, DiGi Valentine, Chao Freak 1, Dark Magician, Penelopi, Bonzi77, BHSoren, and GIGA-XISBASS I stayed. So thank you, your calming words helped me get over how irate I had become.

The first time I saw NiGHTS was when I was 12 years old and my little brother had turned on his Sega. As I sat there watching the start up screen and NiGHTS flew past I thought: "Wow, who's that cool guy?" So NiGHTS has always been a male to me.

On the other hand I can see how some people see NiGHTS as a girl and after reading everyone else's posts I started wondering why none of the other nightmarens have had their genders questioned.

I mean, when I first saw Reala I thought he was a she (a more detailed picture showed my mistake). Clawz, Gulpo, and Gillwing are all animals so you can't really tell what their genders are and Jackle has no body to speak of (let alone physical gender characteristics). In fact the only Marens that have a solid gender is Puffy (who is well endowned) and Wizeman who has his gender in his name.

So what do you think?

[Noctourne Wonderland]

I became very angry when I read that first post and I only got two thrids of the way through it before I had to stop. I almost left but thanks to TORiAS the fallen, Nemoide, infractus, SmashQueen, Noctourne Wonder, charlie, viperxmns, DiGi Valentine, Chao Freak 1, Dark Magician, Penelopi, Bonzi77, BHSoren, and GIGA-XISBASS I stayed. So thank you, your calming words helped me get over how irate I had become.

The first time I saw NiGHTS was when I was 12 years old and my little brother had turned on his Sega. As I sat there watching the start up screen and NiGHTS flew past I thought: "Wow, who's that cool guy?" So NiGHTS has always been a male to me.

On the other hand I can see how some people see NiGHTS as a girl and after reading everyone else's posts I started wondering why none of the other nightmarens have had their genders questioned.

I mean, when I first saw Reala I thought he was a she (a more detailed picture showed my mistake). Clawz, Gulpo, and Gillwing are all animals so you can't really tell what their genders are and Jackle has no body to speak of (let alone physical gender characteristics). In fact the only Marens that have a solid gender is Puffy (who is well endowned) and Wizeman who has his gender in his name.

So what do you think?

I dunno, Puffy looks a lot like Divine...

[MOONLiGHTDEWZ]

I dunno, Puffy looks a lot like Divine...

You're right that person does really look like Puffy. Although I'd like to see Puffy with a gun. Maybe she wouldn't get crushed by a table then. She'd just have to shoot NiGHTS out off the sky. HA

Btw I like your sig.

[Nemoide]

I dunno, Puffy looks a lot like Divine...

LAFF RIOT.

[Dark Magician]

I dunno, Puffy looks a lot like Divine...

Pfft!!!

Thanks, now every time I see Puffy, I'm going to imagine her singing the "body language" line from Poor Unfortunate Souls.

[GIGA-XISBASS VISITOR]

You're right that person does really look like Puffy. Although I'd like to see Puffy with a gun. Maybe she wouldn't get crushed by a table then. She'd just have to shoot NiGHTS out off the sky. HA

Btw I like your sig.

Heh Nice. This would be Puffy.

PUFFY: Target Locked. Fire!! *Rapidfires NIGHTS out of the sky* *Terminator voice* I AM THE PUFFYNATOR. PREPARE TO BE PUFFYNATED. *Fires Death laser* XD.

[Level 99]

I dunno, Puffy looks a lot like Divine...

I'm a huge John Waters fan and I just had almost all of the water in my mouth come out my nose. Bravo, sir.

[Noctourne Wonderland]

I'm a huge John Waters fan and I just had almost all of the water in my mouth come out my nose. Bravo, sir.

*Bows* It's an art, really.

John Waters is great. I love the anti-smoking (kind of) cinema policy reel he did:

[MOONLiGHTDEWZ]

Heh Nice. This would be Puffy.

PUFFY: Target Locked. Fire!! *Rapidfires NIGHTS out of the sky* *Terminator voice* I AM THE PUFFYNATOR. PREPARE TO BE PUFFYNATED. *Fires Death laser* XD.

Oh gosh, that is so funny. lol XD