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Theories and Mysteries of JoD


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#1
SmashQueen

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Okay, this is one of those weird posts I sometimes come up with (and eventually make a fool out of myself in the process), but here it is.

You see, I'm one of those people (although I've never met anyone else with this passion) that look for meaning in everything. Symbolism, reasonable backgrounds, you name it. I'm a sucker for it. I love explanations rather than "it's just like that." A weird trait I have, but I can't ignore it. This was furthered by the symbolism in Klonoa 2: Lunatea's Veil and from there whenever I came across something, I wanted an explanation (granted, I've always wanted explanations for everything, but it's increased since).

Now, I set my sights on JoD (...which I no longer have ;_;). Along with my weird ways of trying to connect it with NiD, figuring out one of multiple reasonable answers to the question "Why did NiGHTS rebel against Wizeman?", wondering what could have happened to Jackle, and more, I've come up with several theories that I'd like to share.

...And yes I know we go above and beyond what's presented...but I still enjoy explanations to things that have none in the first place. Those explanations also give prompts on writing one-shots or full stories in fanfiction (of which I can't seem to stay away from ^^;).

Keep in mind, I've never read anyone else's theories (at the time of this posting) so these are just assumptions and such.

- Theory 1: Dream Drops of Remembrance

(Keep in mind that I've never played NiD, but this is what I think of those little collectibles.)

In JoD, when you collect all of the Dream Drops and
Spoiler
(Just in case...although I'm pretty sure everybody knows this by now.)

I believe this is because those Dream Drops are actually fragments (dreams or memories, you decide)
Spoiler
Now, like NiGHTS with his Personas, people can change how they look in a dream. With those items gathered,
Spoiler


Those tears of leaving a friend are never forgotten, and the memories (or fragments of dreams) of that purple jester will never fade.

An insignificant thing people tend to pass up, but I thought I'd be nice to get this out in the open.

- Theory 2: Reala's Bandages?

http://www.nightsint...?showtopic=3429

(Yeah, not bringing it to a different thread altogether, so a link to the original will do.)

- Theory 3: Octopaw's...Everywhere

I personally believe that the poor thing likes to go to places he doesn't expect NiGHTS to go. ...He wants peace darned it!

- Theory 4: NiGHTS' Betrayal (It would be all alone if I left it out, sorry.)

I'll just make this short since there are many possibilities for this. This goes back to NiD, yes, but more evidence has, in my opinion (since I never played the original), been brought up to give an inkling at least as to why he left.

Taking some points from a one-shot seldom in progress ("Rebelling Over Nothing"), I think it may have had to do something with freedom and being restricted by Wizeman. NiGHTS enjoys flying as do we all and he might've goofed off too much and had been denied from leaving Nightmare. As well, Wizeman thinks himself as a god, so perhaps NiGHTS resented that.

...And off hand, I'd like to add this: the whole "light of the Ideya" thing that was left out of JoD (found by Kentilan when hacking) also inspired a bit that perhaps the light of a Red Ideya fused with NiGHTS, enabling him to live outside Nightmare. (Stupid point, but it's all in trying to find reason.) That or (obviously) a shard of Red Ideya..infused with the light to keep it active.

Whatever the full story is, NiGHTS is willing to die to make sure Wizeman...dies too. Jeez that's some deep hatred.

Update: In the unused script for JoD, something that I think NiGHTS says has brought something up. (Also added in a little more dialogue from the script.)

We're just doing our best to save Nightopia
from your messed up schemes.

If you really want me to stop showing you
up, then quit bothering us!

Oh, those are big words, NiGHTS.

The time for mercy has passed. I'll
deliver your heads to Master Wizeman myself!


That would support what NiGHTS was rebelling against. It was for Nightopia first and foremost. The Ideya and the Dreamers connect to it so of course he was willing to help them to stop the...destruction perhaps? He does seem to love exploring the places (enough to leave the Visitors behind anyways).

Assuming it was NiGHTS saying that...right?

- Theory 5: To Brainwash, or Not to Brainwash? (I'll probably come back to this one at a later time)

This has been on my mind for some time but... Why did Wizeman want to merely brainwash NiGHTS instead of destroying him/her? I have two reasons that, to me, seem most plausible:

1. NiGHTS was an incredible Nightmaren before turning traitor. He's far too precious to destroy.

Or more likely...

2. It's difficult, or nearly impossible, to create First Level Nightmaren. It would be far simpler to wipe out NiGHTs' consciousness and give him/her a new mind.

This can be carried over to the question of why NiGHTS and Reala, beings that are basically two sides of the same coin, were not created as one. I've said that Wizeman didn't want anybody close to perfect rivaling him, a god, so he made them separate. Perhaps, besides efficiency and avoiding "perfection," it was difficult to create a being that was a cross of NiGHTS and Reala.

Perhaps Wizeman ran out of resources or those resources are difficult to come by?

Update: In another topic, Twilight mentioned that maybe Wizeman is giving up a part of himself to create the Nightmarens. Making Nightmarens from a part of himself seems plausible, however, there's still the issue of what resources Wizeman uses to create First-Levels since only two are known to exist. If it was as simple as creating Marens that are common in every level, he could do it again (and supposing how long he's been in charge of Nightmare, he could have had the chance to make more). We don't know how long it took for Wizeman to create Reala and NiGHTS and nor do we know the conditions he had to do so. The same goes for Second-Levels, but they seem to be easier to create than First-Levels.

Perhaps the answer lies in the differences between First- and Second-Level Nightmarens? Crack that mystery with even a small theory, and the answer should be close. It has to do with what First Levels have in common, besides being humanoid... Then again... Maybe that's it? (Will have to come back to that theory later.)

Update 2:

That which I have created, I can
just as easily destroy. So be it.
Your fate is now sealed.

A quote from Wizeman at the end of JoD. This suggests that it was easy to create NiGHTS, a First-Level Nightmaren. If that's true, then he might have seen no reason to create more First-Levels (which probably could have made his job a whole lot easier in the long run if they were sent after the rebel if they weren't rebels themselves). Either that or there was another reason he didn't make more First-Levels - at least ones we know of. Perhaps he had enough resources at this time, but didn't want to waste them if he didn't have to.

Note: If this was JoD before NiD, then Wizeman began to run out of resources sometime after this battle.

-------
JoD Before NiD Theories

- Theory 1: Placing the Games in Order

Thanks to Penelopi for providing this.

Well, since the dialogue in the deleted JoD cutscenes indicates that NiGHTS is rebelling for the first time in that game, I figure a good way to put JoD and NiD together is to say JoD comes first, and the events in it are what causes Wizeman to imprison NiGHTS in NiD. The only missing thing is, Reala is supposed to somehow be the cause for NiGHTS's imprisonment. I guess Reala could have just dragged NiGHTS back to Wizeman once they all revived, but I have no idea how he'd do that since NiGHTS beat him in JoD without the kids. Maybe NiGHTS was weakened from the Wizeman battle in JoD, and even being brought back from the dead or whatever happened didn't restore his full strength.


- Theory 2: A Little Rebellion is Just the Beginning

As Kentilan ripped from JoD and Penelopi kindly pointed out, Reala is stated to have said that NiGHTS' rebellion was 'little' in a planned, but not completed, scene.

You've defeated Cerberus, and you've
meddled with Master Wizeman's plans.

How far do you plan to take this little
rebellion of yours, NiGHTS?

That's Reala talking, in a cutscene placed after the 2nd Cerberus battle and a couple other random missions that didn't make it in. Obviously, Reala wouldn't be asking NiGHTS what his intentions were if he'd already broken away from Wizeman once before. Which also brings up an interesting thought. NiGHTS could have been still officially allied with Wizeman at the point where Will and Helen meet him in the beginning. But then again, Owl didn't seem very scared of him.


And might I add to this. We don't know how long Owl and NiGHTS knew each other before Will and Helen showed up. True this is suggested as to being early in the rebellion, but let's not forget how unfriendly Reala was to NiGHTS when they met in Helen's dream (who was hinted at meeting NiGHTS first in Will's dream). So obviously the rebellion started before either kid showed up, but was still in it's early stages to be laughable by Reala.

Update: Found another quote that was cut out that could support this theory.

NiGHTS... I command you...
Leave this place at once!

That was based on destroying the Tower of Nightmare. Now why would Wizeman command NiGHTS to do something? Quite obvious really. He thought NiGHTS was playing around and wasn't really being serious in rebelling.

More Supporting Evidence:
Here (in-game, not deleted)

- Theory 3: Reala's Bandages? (Take Two)

This can swing the timeline either way like most theories. If JoD is a sequel, then the bandages may cover up old wounds. If JoD is a prequel, then Reala may have tossed away his armor since it might have been impeded him. It couldn't help stop NiGHTS the first time, so why would it help later? A "Tragic Revenge" indeed as Reala chooses to get close and use Paraloops to stop NiGHTS instead of using Mare balloons. (Revenge is usually personal so...)

- Theory 4: Jackle's Creation (This is a huge one that may be edited later.)

As speculated in the theory "To Brainwash, or Not to Brainwash?": "It's difficult, or nearly impossible, to create First Level Nightmaren. It would be far simpler to wipe out NiGHTs' consciousness and give him/her a new mind."

If this is true, then perhaps Wizeman was using constricted resources when creating Jackle. Explains a lot there doesn't it? Of course there's more to this. When did Wizeman create Jackle? If in JoD (as a prequel), then he may have been locked up due to his insanity. Perhaps then in NiD Wizeman's resources were stretched out to where he HAD to allow Jackle to be of some use.

But wait, WHY would Wizeman's resources be stretched out in NiD specifically? Here is what spurred it:

I thought that Jackle was inconcesquential too, but he is the final part of making NiGHTS and Reala have a complete personalty. Jackle is totally androgynous in every sence of the word, so he has nothing to cancel out the characteristics of NiGHTS and Reala. He is the insanity to balance out NiGHTS and Reala's rationality, and the mystery to balance their flamboyance. He looks like NiGHTS and Reala a bit, so there's probably a connection.

And that made the cogs turn and resulted in this (edited for relevance):

Also, the difficulty in creating First- and Second-Levels. Who's to say that Wizeman had enough Secondaries to take care of every dreamer that he became conscious of? Either not many dreamers had Ideya to take and protect or, with so many Visitors, he had to assign more than one Nightmaren to a Nightopia. That would make sense since Reala, a First-Level, was protecting a Nightopia just like the Second-Levels. Shouldn't a First-Level have better things to do than do to the dirty work of a Second-Level? Just what were his duties anyway prior to taking over Stick Canyon? Also why would he need to do that (protect SC) unless Wizeman couldn't make enough Secondaries to go around? We don't know how much effort goes into making them, but it's less effort than making a First-Level and more than making a Third.

Edit: Even if there were weren't many Visitors with Ideya to take and protect, perhaps the difficulty in creating Secondaries left only Reala to look over Stick Canyon.

Of course, there's also the possibility that Jackle was either the first or third known First-Level Nightmaren. Either he was failed as the first (and Wizeman learned his lesson on how to make better Nightmarens), or Wizeman used constrained resources in creating Jackle as a third and resulting in...well you know. It would make sense that Wizeman wouldn't make anymore First-Levels if Jackle somehow botched up his plans. Then again, maybe he's bidding his time until he has enough resources for the perfect Nightmaren... (Scary thought ain't it?)

Update:

That which I have created, I can
just as easily destroy. So be it.
Your fate is now sealed.

A quote from Wizeman at the end of JoD. This suggests that it was easy to create NiGHTS, a First-Level Nightmaren. If that's true, then he might have seen no reason to create more First-Levels (which probably could have made his job a whole lot easier in the long run if they were sent after the rebel if they weren't rebels themselves). Either that or there was another reason he didn't make more First-Levels - at least ones we know of. Perhaps he had enough resources at this time, but didn't want to waste them if he didn't have to. First-Levels require a lot more effort than regular Nightmaren, so at least time would be needed to create one...but who knows how long that takes? An eon perhaps? Just because something's easy, doesn't mean it takes little time. It might be easy to get through a game, but does that mean you'll be done in an hour? A day?

Granted, perhaps it was Jackle's creation that kept Wizeman from hastily creating anymore First-Levels. Sure, it's easy to create, but perfection is needed so no more rebellious Maren are brought into being. Jackle has the ability, in all his randomness, to actually question Wizeman's actions. Then again, if it's just to wreck a Nightopia, I don't see why he wouldn't jump on board to make everything into a resemblance of his lair. Imagine Soft Museum if Jackle redecorated it. Doesn't seem so friendly anymore does it?

Note: If this was NiD before JoD, then Wizeman began to regain a pool of resources sometime after the final battle. (Explains the luxury Reala has of nail polish, doesn't it?)

Update 2: It turns out that Jackle as a prototype First-Level Maren is canon. This possibly brings two things to light. One, Wizeman was experimenting with either abundant or constricted resources when creating Jackle. Two, after Jackle it became easier to create First Levels. Perhaps NiGHTS was second to be made since in the original JP description for him it says: "Having the craziness of the original Nightmaren, the free wild character of this individual suffers much misfortune." So as Wizeman went on creating, his skills improved. It might be "easy" to create First levels now, but perhaps the First-Levels are a little too...unpredictable. Wizeman never expected NiGHTS to rebel and he never expected Jackle to be...well, Jackle. With the creation of Jackle and NiGHTS perhaps Wizeman deemed the creation of First-Levels only necessary if there was no other option. Absolute necessity to keep his Maren in line since it seems that the higher the level of the Nightmaren, the more consciousness they will have and thus may have a mind of their own.

What resources could Wizeman take to create First-Levels to where he can't even control them half of the time and there are often unseen results? It's more than just Nightmare energy...

- Theory 5: Power in Life Choices

Link: Here (To avoid taking up more space on the first post.)

---
It should be noted that to accept JoD before NiD you must ignore the following theories:

(JoD) - Theory 1: Dream Drops of Remembrance (There is a way for this to be slightly plausible, but it involves headache-inducing multiple planes of existence co-existing at the same time in the Night Dimension.)
(JoD) - Theory 2: Reala's Bandages? (Again this is the one for supporting JoD after NiD.)

(Very tired after getting this all together and editing the post. Might make less sense tomorrow. G'NiGHT... *snore*)

-------------
Miscellaneous Mysteries/Theories

Jackle's Disappearance - Either dead or banished to some far corner of the Night Dimension. (Doesn't matter if JoD proceeded NiD or not.) He may also be alive if the "NiGHTS Never Dies" theory has any say on a Nightmaren's lifeline.

Reala's Persona - A control-device made by Wizeman to keep those who use it under his control. Probably only gets effective after extensive exposure without taking it off. After prolonged usage, it becomes difficult for the effects to wear off...and considering that Reala is loyal to begin with, it's not likely much will change if he were to take it off for a week or so. (This one's terrible and might need to be looked into further.)
Update: It seems that the Personas are mainly for representing loyalty to Wizeman (and supposedly different Personas allow First-Levels to shape-shift...which NiGHTS does anyway in NiD without one). Only First-Levels wear the masks, but since NiGHTS rebelled they really don't serve a purpose.

Nightopians - Ancient Blessed Creatures that exist to guide Dreamers, even before NiGHTS arrived. However, they are weak and only the Visitors can protect them along the path to reclaim their Ideya. That is all...

Dream Gate Ruins - The Night Dimension has been around for ages so of course there's going to be ruins! Although that island might've been larger at some point... Heck, there might have been a palace that got decimated thousands of years ago leading to the fountain, but we'll never know really...

NiGHTS Never Dies - Simple. This is a quote from "Journey of Dreams" (although I can't recall where at the end this was supposed to be at).

I am... the creator of Nightmare.


Heed my words...

As long as darkness exists within the
hearts of humans then I... and the
nightmares... shall never be destroyed!

Remember that NiGHTS is a Nightmaren first and foremost so as long as Wizeman lives, NiGHTS, Reala, and the other Nightmarens will never be permanently destroyed (unless Wizeman destroys one of them of course; he's the creator after all).

What First-Levels Are Made Of - As speculated in Update 2 in Jackle's Creation, there might be something more being used to create First-Levels besides Nightmare energy. "What resources could Wizeman take to create First-Levels to where he can't even control them half of the time and there are often unseen results?" Considering their humanoid shape, it's safe to assume it has something to do with Dreamers. Ideya is an obvious guess since Wizeman is always collecting them and we never see what happens to them. Yes, Wizeman doesn't want anyone else to have Ideya so that there won't be anymore Nightopias, but what happens to those spheres? There's a chance he may use them to create First-Levels and considering the nature of Ideya, there's no real way to tell what will happen when a Nightmare being tries to use it for something outside of it's intended use. Destruction, most likely, but Wizeman isn't going to bat a...erm...hand-eye at holding one unless it's the Red Ideya of Courage.
A second idea - and this is a bit of a stretch - is that First-Level Nightmarens are made out of the subconsciousness of Dreamers. Now just hold on, because this is merely a thought and there's isn't much supporting it except for the facts that First-Levels tend to have more consciousness than others and they have a humanoid shape. Now, Wizeman was once a Visitor, but turned bitter and allowed his subconscious to drift and become absorbed into the Night Dimension. If it happened to one dreamer, who's to say it can't happen again and by Wizeman's will? Now if that isn't a scary thought - falling asleep permanently only to wake up without a thought on your Waking World life and becoming a slave to an omnipotent Nightmare being - then I haven't a clue what would be worse.
But wait! In the Official U.S JoD manual, it says that he "derived [Nightmare creatures] from its own soul." Well, in the Official JP NiD manual, it says: "He created Nightmarens by using his own power." Soul and power are completely different things yet they could be thought of as the same. There's a chance it's half-and-half, that he creates Marens from his own soul (which probably crossed over Dimensions when he, as a Visitor, "died" in the Waking World...less confusing if you don't get into the science of it) and he uses the power he gained in the World of Dreams to create the Marens as well.
Whatever Wizeman does to create First-Levels definitely has something to do with the fact that each resembles a human in some way.
(Will have to come back to work on this theory.)

Wizeman's Power Fluctuations - Link: Here (To avoid taking up more space on the first post.)
Additional points (major and minor):
Masterweaver
Smashy (Minor)
[This theory is subject to change, most likely to be added to.]

-------------

Eh. That's all I got and I'll edit when and if more pop up from my observations on youtube. Anyone want to contribute to my mess of guesses? >>; Also, am I weird, or strange, or abnormal for bringing this up? O_o

Note: Whatever I type down at a moment's notice usually doesn't make any sense come morning. X_X

#2
Kori

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I think everyone's had their own theories for AGES, but it's fun to get them out in the open! X3

Dream Drops - ooooh, I like that! My dream dictionary doesn't list teardrops, but crying is kinda close - "It may be the intuitive knowledge of another person leaving or dying." A little nod to the fans of old? X3

Reala's Bandages - hmmm, I do kinda think they're more of a fashion statement, but it definitely wouldn't surprise me if he had a few scars. I've always thought Reala and NiGHTS were close, like twins, and when NiGHTS rebelled, it was a major loss to Reala - whether he admits it or not!

Octopaw - .. poor poor Octopaw. XD I can't tell if he's trying to escape or genuinely having fun!

NiGHTS' Betrayal - ah, the big one! I gotta agree with you on his love of flying and freedom, those tend to go hand in hand. :3 I think he has a genuine fascination with Ideya too, particularly Courage...

.. which always interested me! I mean, Courage is the ONE Ideya they can't grab. I think it's because courage allows you to face and overcome what frightens you - nightmares! So why would NiGHTS, born as a nightmare, help someone with courage? Because he understands it best, having rebelled himself? Because he appreciates how difficult it is for dreamers to be brave when their nightmares run rampant? Because of something he simply can't explain?

It's a fun one to discuss! :lol:

I'd go on, but my sister wants to see Toy Story 3D in a bit - better get ready for kids and popcorn..! X3

#3
KENOSiS

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I really like your theories, especially the dream drops theory.
It makes JoD more enjoyable imo.

#4
Tails Doll

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Here's a mystery: why those voice actors?

#5
StarsOfCASSiOPEiA

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Here's a mystery: why those voice actors?

I get the use of accents, though. At least that makes sense!

I wonder if Reala's feathers mean anything. They were kind of randomly added to his design in JoD, so...?

#6
Penelopi

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I wonder if Reala's feathers mean anything. They were kind of randomly added to his design in JoD, so...?

They were probably added because they make him look more circus-y. I mean that in all seriousness.

#7
SmashQueen

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Okay, new mystery. (Editing first post with this.)

- Theory 5: To Brainwash, or Not to Brainwash?

This has been on my mind for some time but... Why did Wizeman want to merely brainwash NiGHTS instead of destroying him/her? I have two reasons that, to me, seem most plausible:

1. NiGHTS was an incredible Nightmaren before turning traitor. He's far too precious to destroy.

Or more likely...

2. It's difficult, or nearly impossible, to create First Level Nightmaren. It would be far simpler to wipe out NiGHTs' consciousness and give him/her a new mind.

This can be carried over to the question of why NiGHTS and Reala, beings that are basically two sides of the same coin, were not created as one. I've said that Wizeman didn't want anybody close to perfect rivaling him, a god, so he made them separate. Perhaps, besides efficiency and avoiding "perfection," it was difficult to create a being that was a cross of NiGHTS and Reala.

Perhaps Wizeman ran out of resources or those resources are difficult to come by?

#8
Key-Chan

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2. It's difficult, or nearly impossible, to create First Level Nightmaren. It would be far simpler to wipe out NiGHTs' consciousness and give him/her a new mind.


that's a pretty good reason to why Wizeman would simply replace NiGHTS soul and conciseness because it would be difficult to create another first level Nightmaren, it's like what Washington and Church said in Red vs. Blue:'Recovery One' episode 1 and 'Reconstruction' episode 16: "It's cheaper to store it then it is to delete it." So in this case it's easier to replace the soul and conciseness then it is to destroy it.
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Theory1-Reala's Threat

It was probably the fact that since Will was you could say lucid dreaming and Reala knew that so killing Will would give him that shock that would be too much and stop his heart in the waking world, like those dreams that people say when you falling for a long time and when you hit the ground and the brain picks up that shock and could kill you, that's what Reala was probably shooting for.

Theory2- Helen's Ankle Sprain

Maybe when Reala teleported her to Will's dream there's a good chance she fell a few feet from the ground and landed on her ankle thus the sprain.

Theory3-Non-Faded Memories (kinda obvious)

You know those dreams that are so out there, strange, or pleasant and there was a lot of things going on you remember it the next day? That's probably what happened to Will and Helen, their adventure with NiGHTS had a lot of stuff going on and it was engraved in their memory so that's why they remember each other in the waking world.

#9
Rachael

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NiGHTS' Betrayal

hmm...Jackle told a story to kid NiGHTS and Reala about the future Which was excatly like NiD. He couldnt think of any characters so he used reala and NiGHTS. Kid reala and NiGHTS believed this would happen so when NiGHTS grew up she would rebel because small kids are retarded. When NiGHTS grew and ate sofas she wanted to rebel and reala wanted to rebel too but NiGHTS said "No. GTFO Im rebelling not you." And reala was liek "STFU. I'll rebel when I wanna." But he didnt because he was angry at NiGHTS for doing that. Now Wizeman was all like "Howdy NiGHTS" Because he was a cowboy back then and NiGHTS liked pirates so that made her want to rebel even more. So she did but wizeman is like "WTF man Why you doin this?" and locked NiGHTS in the ideya palace which is NiGHTS room. So That's when the wonderful game of NiD happened and JoD. Horrah.

#10
SmashQueen

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@ Rachael -The sad part of this is that it could actually be plausible if you take out the JoD factor. XD
...You know. If we threw all reason and personality out the window. >_>

#11
Rachael

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@ Rachael -The sad part of this is that it could actually be plausible if you take out the JoD factor. XD
...You know. If we threw all reason and personality out the window. >_>


Fine >:C

AND NOT JOD.

Better now?

#12
SmashQueen

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Fine >:C

AND NOT JOD.

Better now?

Wow, sorry. It's just that JoD leaves nothing to the imagination. ...Well, almost nothing. In NiD you could make any assumption you wanted and it could be possible.
Now if NiGHTS had acted like a pirate in JoD...

#13
Rachael

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Hurr hurr I wasnt really angry. That pirate idea sounds awesome though

#14
SmashQueen

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The next mystery: Why didn't NiGHTS act like a pirate in NiD? >_>

The world may never know... (Actually, any mystery is valid as long as there is proof to back it up in the first place.)

Edit: Well, proof or something you can draw upon to point out the mystery in the first place.

#15
Rachael

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Also the reala bandage shirt thing.

Maybe he has a thing for duct tape...

#16
Lumas Nocce

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The Reala bandage thing is totally a design thing, no meaning.... Apparently it's on his arms too? I wouldn't be surprised if the mask was about control, but it's obvious that it doesn't grant full control because Reala fought for Wizeman in NiD and besides, he has to take orders from Wizeman instead of just being used. Anyways, I always thought that the mask was what summoned the seal for Mare Balloons. After all, he couldn't do that in NiD and when you watch the cutscene it kinda looks like the beam is coming from Reala's face.

A lot of this is super thought-out, maybe a little too much. I think that since this is a dream world we're talking about there are somethings that don't have to mean anything. Like Jackle. I mean, people rant about Jackle being missing but what about Puffy? No one ever said Jackle was First Level and he's obviously not the same as NiGHTS and Reala. So, if he was destroyed, the same way Bomamba or Gulpo or any of the bosses were destroyed, why should he come back, especially in someone else's dreams?
Which is also why NiGHTS and Reala do exist in everyone's dreams. Nights is representative of freedome and Reala, in my opinion, is about having an overload of reality. They're total opposites, which is why they're in everyone's dreams. I guess it's wierd that NiGHTS is a nightmare, but I can understand why accepting your dreams is also facing your fears, and as such, you can't have one without the other. I stil wanna know why NiGHTS was wearing the mask in Crystal Castle... The biggest challenge with figuring out the NiGHTS universe is that JoD, which finally has enough storyline to explain things, was so utterly botched and halfway-done. All the opportunities to make sense of things were ruined. On the other hand, since the game is played from the dreamers' perspective, not everything should be explained. It is a world created by human minds, so maybe it doesn't have to make sense.

#17
Noctourne Wonderland

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I thought that Jackle was inconcesquential too, but he is the final part of making NiGHTS and Reala have a complete personalty. Jackle is totally androgynous in every sence of the word, so he has nothing to cancel out the characteristics of NiGHTS and Reala. He is the insanity to balance out NiGHTS and Reala's rationality, and the mystery to balance their flamboyance. He looks like NiGHTS and Reala a bit, so there's probably a connection.

#18
SmashQueen

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I thought that Jackle was inconcesquential too, but he is the final part of making NiGHTS and Reala have a complete personalty. Jackle is totally androgynous in every sence of the word, so he has nothing to cancel out the characteristics of NiGHTS and Reala. He is the insanity to balance out NiGHTS and Reala's rationality, and the mystery to balance their flamboyance. He looks like NiGHTS and Reala a bit, so there's probably a connection.

Epiphany.
Jackle is the only known Maren to be similar in appearance to NiGHTS and Reala. We know Marens like Puffy were s'ploded or offed in NiD, but who can say what happened to Jackle? Reala came back even though he was defeated, so, in theory, if Jackle is the failed First-Level we think he is, there is a possibility of him coming back...just not immediately. As a Second-Level, it could possible take more time for him to recover. Perhaps he could even be unconscious somewhere in the Night Dimension, waiting to wake up one day (erm, night)? First-Levels seem to have more power to withstand a "Black Out" (when Wizeman dies) so Jackle may have had a chance of surviving, even if his helm and mantle were torn and he has been floating in an abyss for who-knows-how-long.

Also, the difficulty in creating First- and Second-Levels. Who's to say that Wizeman had enough Secondaries to take care of every dreamer that he became conscious of? Either not many dreamers had Ideya to take and protect or, with so many Visitors, he had to assign more than one Nightmaren to a Nightopia. That would make sense since Reala, a First-Level, was protecting a Nightopia just like the Second-Levels. Shouldn't a First-Level have better things to do than do to the dirty work of a Second-Level? Just what were his duties anyway prior to taking over Stick Canyon? Also why would he need to do that (protect SC) unless Wizeman couldn't make enough Secondaries to go around? We don't know how much effort goes into making them, but it's less effort than making a First-Level and more than making a Third.

Of course Jackle could just be gone... There's no turning that around...but darned it he completes the trio.

I have no idea if any of this makes sense. It just came at me one after another. ...I need my caffeine. (Feels like I'm missing something here...)

Edit: Even if there were weren't many Visitors with Ideya to take and protect, perhaps the difficulty in creating Secondaries left only Reala to look over Stick Canyon.

#19
Noctourne Wonderland

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Do we really know if anyone was destroyed in NiD? Wizeman destoryed defeated maren, but not Reala. Maybe he was just having a temper tantrum in JoD, and everyone from NiD is just floating around...

#20
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Then theres the argument about which game actually comes first chronologically. You'd think it'd be NiD-JoD, but in the Waking world, Elliot and Claris live in a far more futuristic setting (there's hover cars around the streets, and the Burning Rangers cameo thing) than Will and Helen. Not to mention the fact that both the games seem to be set not long after NiGHTS has rebelled against Wizeman, confusing matters worse. You could say that they are two very different takes on the same story, and don't fit together at all.

#21
Mr.Me

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i think their going to pull a rareware. They're going to wait 10 years, remake them, then make something up to connect them. It worked for SnS for Banjo Kazooi/Tooie.
CURSE YOU RAREWARE!!!

#22
Noctourne Wonderland

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Maybe it has Rocky Horror/Shock Treatment syndrome. The NiGHTS and Nightopia in JoD might not be the same NiGHTS and Nightopia in NiD...

#23
Penelopi

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Well, since the dialogue in the deleted JoD cutscenes indicates that NiGHTS is rebelling for the first time in that game, I figure a good way to put JoD and NiD together is to say JoD comes first, and the events in it are what causes Wizeman to imprison NiGHTS in NiD. The only missing thing is, Reala is supposed to somehow be the cause for NiGHTS's imprisonment. I guess Reala could have just dragged NiGHTS back to Wizeman once they all revived, but I have no idea how he'd do that since NiGHTS beat him in JoD without the kids. Maybe NiGHTS was weakened from the Wizeman battle in JoD, and even being brought back from the dead or whatever happened didn't restore his full strength.

#24
SmashQueen

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So I guess that's another theory: JoD before NiD. Still, Reala was supposed to be the cause of NiGHTS' imprisonment so...

*looks* O_O Oh my - NO! When Kentilan left all of the posts were deleted! The leftover script is gone! ;_; Well...there's goes the bad thing I was waiting for...

Edit: Okay, the posts are there but some of the cooler stuff is gone. >_< Gah... There goes reference material. Anybody save that stuff?

#25
Penelopi

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Actually, I did save it. Here's the biggest piece of evidence:

You've defeated Cerberus, and you've
meddled with Master Wizeman's plans.

How far do you plan to take this little
rebellion of yours, NiGHTS?

That's Reala talking, in a cutscene placed after the 2nd Cerberus battle and a couple other random missions that didn't make it in. Obviously, Reala wouldn't be asking NiGHTS what his intentions were if he'd already broken away from Wizeman once before. Which also brings up an interesting thought. NiGHTS could have been still officially allied with Wizeman at the point where Will and Helen meet him in the beginning. But then again, Owl didn't seem very scared of him.

You want me to send you all the files?

#26
SmashQueen

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Yes, please Penelopi! You're a life saver! I love looking over those unused pieces of dialogue. :P I'll send my e-mail address in a little bit.
---
Either Reala didn't think of NiGHTS' defeat of Wizeman in NiD seriously, or this is indeed near the beginning of it all. You make very good points and the settings in both games make it all the more believable.

They call it a sequel, we call it a prequel and all that's left is Reala's doing to put NiGHTS away. It also makes sense why Jackle, a sort of completion to NiGHTS and Reala wasn't present...but then again, he seems like a failed First-Level... Was he the first or was he tried later as a third First-Level...and... *blink* It would make sense that Wizeman wouldn't make anymore First-Levels if Jackle somehow botched up his plans. Maybe he was hidden away until his resources were stretched out in NiD where he HAD to allow Jackle to be of some use.

...Or I could be wrong. After all, it still brings the "To Brainwash or Not to brainwash" theory into light. ...Jackle was locked up...? I dunno.

Also, "There is no NiGHTS" seems stronger if Reala went through JoD before NiD.

Let the theories on "Jod Before NiD" commence! X3 That's going to take a while. Gotta think on this quite a bit...

Edit 2: (excerpt from "JoD Before NiD Theories," currently in-progress; when done I'll edit the first post)
And might I add to this [Penelopi's post]. We don't know how long Owl and NiGHTS knew each other before Will and Helen showed up. True this is suggested as to being early in the rebellion, but let's not forget how unfriendly Reala was to NiGHTS when they met in Helen's dream (who was hinted at meeting NiGHTS first in Will's dream). So obviously the rebellion started before either kid showed up, but was still in it's early stages to be laughable by Reala.

Edit 3: Penelopi, what you said about linking the games in the 23rd post, that's a very good theory. Still, the whole dream drop theory is thrown out the window at least...if you don't want to deal with headache-inducing multiple planes of existence co-existing in the Night Dimension. (Confusion ahoy.)

#27
Noctourne Wonderland

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SmashyQ, that makes sense. It explains why we never see Wizeman in NiD- he's still gathering strength.

#28
Lumas Nocce

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I think that as a nightmare Reala was most suited to Stick Canyon. It's a dream based on Elliot's feelings towards growing up, which include having to face reality and give up on your dreams, prompting Reala, the opposite of NiGHTS.

the timeline thing is interesting. You're right that they seem to be in very differet times.. However, you should realize that the World of Dreams transcends our reality. It might exist outside of our time, so that for NiGHTS it's a sequel and for the the waking world it's a prequel? Or, since NiGHTS and Wizeman's conflict is kind of symbolic (and as we know, Wizeman can never be truly destroyed) maybe they're in a constant state of hide and seek?

#29
Noctourne Wonderland

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I've been thinking more about my Rocky/Shocky theory, and I think I've made it so it makes sense.

Once upon a time, there was The Rocky Horror Picture Show. It focused on Brad Majors and Janet Weiss, a young couple. Another set of characters is Riff-Raff, a handyman, and his siter, Magenta. The movie was a clut classic, and fans wanted more (more, more, more!). Fast forwad five years, and out comes the sequel, Shock Treatment. It took out most of the popular aspects of the original, changed the actors who played Brad and Janet, and was a flop. This time, Brad and Janet are married, and appear as contestants on a reality show that has taken over their town. Amoungst Denton's colourful citizens are Cosmo and Nation McKinley, siblings played by the same actor and actress who played Riff and Magenta. While it seems like a sequel, and the characters return (sort of), the creator has stated that it's not; the Brad, Janet, and Denton of Rocky are not the same Brad, Janet, and Denton of Shock Treatment.

"How do obsucure movies relate to NiGHTS, Noctourne?" Well...

Aside from the history of Shock Treatment being a perfect parallel for JoD, the idea of a dream world lends itself to some liberties. For example, we all dream. Rarely do we all have the same dream, so ther could be absolutely no relation between the dreams in NiD and the dreams in JoD. Nightopia is created by the ideya, so obviously Will won't have the same traits as Elliot. We know that Nightopia wasn't destroyed in NiD, so that immediately erases any link between that aspect of the games. Nightmare works in the same way. As for Twin Seeds looking more futuristic than Bellbridge, New York is more futuristic than Rome, but that doesn't mean that everyone litterally travels back in time if they visit Italy.

"But Noctourne, what about NiGHTS and Reala! How can there be more than one NiGHTS?!"

There can be; we saw it in NiD at the very end. Being high level marens, NiGHTS and Reala might be able to transcend dreams, but still taking on slightly different forms to each dreamer. That's why Reala uses different, yet similar means of trapping NiGHTS. He can use Ideya palaces in NiD, but Will and Helen don't dream about gazeebos, so he has to adapt. The "how far" line could now be interpreted to be litterally how far, as in distance. NiGHTS is now waging war across four dreamer in two cities in pootentially different time periods. That's pretty far.

So, in short, NiD and JoD may not have a chronology, because they are completely different characters in coompletely different worlds. This brings us back to by "two Wizeman" theory, now evolved to mean that Wizeman of NiD is one ruler in one set of dreams, and JoD Wizeman is a totally seperate character with a totally different domain.

#30
Darkwolf

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i love your theories i think it's great that you like everything to have a meaning :angry:

#31
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I think that as a nightmare Reala was most suited to Stick Canyon. It's a dream based on Elliot's feelings towards growing up, which include having to face reality and give up on your dreams, prompting Reala, the opposite of NiGHTS.

the timeline thing is interesting. You're right that they seem to be in very differet times.. However, you should realize that the World of Dreams transcends our reality. It might exist outside of our time, so that for NiGHTS it's a sequel and for the the waking world it's a prequel? Or, since NiGHTS and Wizeman's conflict is kind of symbolic (and as we know, Wizeman can never be truly destroyed) maybe they're in a constant state of hide and seek?

Quite true about Reala and SC.

The World of Dreams transcends our reality... I believe there are grounds for some more theories, although it's going to take some research. My brain's going to be fried once this is over. XD

This brings us back to by "two Wizeman" theory, now evolved to mean that Wizeman of NiD is one ruler in one set of dreams, and JoD Wizeman is a totally seperate character with a totally different domain.

Might I ask what the original "two Wizeman" theory was? I'm afraid I never heard of it.


Thanks to everyone so far for your input, theories, and thoughts. :)

#32
Noctourne Wonderland

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This idea was shot down more or less instantly, but maybe Wizeman isn't the only one. NiD Wizeman has the title 'Wizeman the Wicked," but JoD has no such thing. Maybe it's like "Catherine the Great" or "Ivan the Terrible," in that Wizeman is an occupation, not a name, and the second part of the name is to distinguish each Wizeman. Once NiGHTS destroys one Wizeman, the next visitor without ideya is crowned the new Wizeman. That would make Wizeman VIII Wizeman the Wicked, and Wizeman IX the one in JoD.

To explain the new bosses, perhaps each Wizeman dies along with his creations, so the next can create a new batch. "But wait!" you say. "How come NiGHTS and Reala return?!" Maybe the souls of past marens remain, and the new Wizeman can create new bodies. That explains the characters redesigns and the similarities between the NiD and JoD bosses. Or, maybe first level nightmarens survive, and the weaker ones vanish.

I came up with this after noticing that Wizeman in NiD had eight horns, and Wizeman in JoD had nine.

#33
SmashQueen

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Wow... But if Wizeman from JoD was number 9 then that contradicts the "JoD before NiD" theories. The renewed one of different Wizemans is a little more manageable if the titles Wizeman the Eighth or Wizeman the Ninth are merely cast aside since both Wizemans rule over different dreamers... Then again, maybe there was one Wizeman for the Bellbridge area and one for the Twin Seeds area.

I can see why it was shot down, but it's still a good theory to explain the count of horns.

It's questionable what happens to Wizeman at the end of each game. Does he sink into the depths of Nightmare to regain his power and then prey on the next area that has the resources to help him with his return? Of course he never really dies. He's Nightmare incarnate. Of course the fact that NiGHTS, the rebel Wizeman wants to brainwash, keep coming back as well, so what is keeping him from dying completely?

Actually, that last question may be tied to Reala. Let's look at him for a second. He's the most loyal Nightmaren and he wouldn't dare to betray Wizeman. He's the metaphorical right hand Maren to his master and considering his power and potential, it would be wise to keep him alive. So perhaps Wizeman has a tie between himself and Reala's lifeline. Wizeman doesn't die therefore Reala doesn't die. Although, the question of NiGHTS' life is questioned as well. Perhaps the same line was not yet established in him and instead there was something between NiGHTS and Reala that forced that bound to be shared at the moment NiGHTS was supposed to disappear at the end of JoD (or NiD).

They are, after all, brothers of a sort.

Then again Wizeman says that NiGHTS dies if he dies. Wizeman never meant for NiGHTS to live after their bout.

That which I have created, I can
just as easily destroy. So be it.
Your fate is now sealed.

(And that quote also goes for another theory as of this moment.)
This requires further investigation! ...But there's isn't a lot to go on...

Edit: Added this to the Obvious Theories. Catches me off guard when the answer is so simple. Thank you Penelopi for the text yet again. It's a life-saver. ^^

NiGHTS Never Dies - Simple. This is a quote from "Journey of Dreams" (although I can't recall where at the end this was supposed to be at).

I am... the creator of Nightmare.


Heed my words...

As long as darkness exists within the
hearts of humans then I... and the
nightmares... shall never be destroyed!

Remember that NiGHTS is a Nightmaren first and foremost so as long as Wizeman lives, NiGHTS, Reala, and the other Nightmarens will never be permanently destroyed (unless Wizeman destroys one of them of course; he's the creator after all).

#34
Noctourne Wonderland

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Wizeman is a god, as stated in JoD, and gods can't die. But is this true, or just Wizey's god complex?

We see that Wizeman in NiD is much more calm than Wizeman in JoD- he floats in his weird, magical dimension thing and plots, not showing himself until the end. In JoD, though, Wizeman is very flamboyant, having created very decorative monsters, a palacial throne room, and he's even adorned himself with jewelry that gives him a sunburst around his head. JoD Wizeman obviously thinks very highly of himself, so is he really a deity, or just someone with a hopelessly inflated ego?

#35
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A bit of both I think. He's a bit of a deity, but he also has an ego problem.

I like to think that Wizeman is made of Nightmare energy. He used to be a Visitor without Ideya and eventually Nightmare consumed him. He has a god complex, but he creates beings and truly cannot die all because of the energy his subconsciousness absorbed. A lot of it goes to his head, but his manner of speaking in JoD made him seem - and I'm not trying to make a pun here - wise like he had seen much over the time he has been there in the Night Dimension.

That's another mystery right there: Why the change in attitude between NiD and JoD? It supports the idea that each game is a retelling of the same story (almost like with Zelda), but there may also be another reason... Going to have to ponder on this.

#36
Noctourne Wonderland

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That's another mystery right there: Why the change in attitude between NiD and JoD? It supports the idea that each game is a retelling of the same story (almost like with Zelda), but there may also be another reason... Going to have to ponder on this.

Perhaps if NiD took place after JoD, Wizeman is left relatively powerless after NiGHTS "killed" him. NiD Wizeman can't be flamboyant and showy in NiD because he simply hasn't got the power, and he can't create marens as detailed as the one in JoD for the same reason. His throneroom, the ultimate symbol of his JoD-era frivolity, is destroyed in NiD, and so he is left to float in the darkness and regain energy.

#37
SmashQueen

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Perhaps if NiD took place after JoD, Wizeman is left relatively powerless after NiGHTS "killed" him. NiD Wizeman can't be flamboyant and showy in NiD because he simply hasn't got the power, and he can't create marens as detailed as the one in JoD for the same reason. His throneroom, the ultimate symbol of his JoD-era frivolity, is destroyed in NiD, and so he is left to float in the darkness and regain energy.

Quite plausible. The theories that say JoD occurred prior to NiD are building up.

I'll go ahead and touch the vice versa of things (a bit harder doing this nowadays, and I know this won't be convincing at all). If NiD was before JoD, then Wizeman probably revealed his anger issues over being beaten once before. How dare a lowly Nightmaren defeat him?! A god! He had to step up and show his power to subdue the rebel. (This is totally bogus and a better guess should be made in the future.)

However, at this point it's quite difficult to ignore the evidence for JoD before NiD and it mainly makes sense if we focus on those theories while on this question of mood swings.

Time flows differently in the Night Dimension, so a sequel for us is a prequel for the Night Dimension. The Dream Drop Theory should be renewed to point out that the Night Dimension transcends time...although that would require extensive study into the subject of time and dimensions to utterly complete it (What can I say? I like to be thorough). Although, it's still questionable if the result of collecting all the Dream Drops is canon... The theory established makes it seem so. I'll alter that theory later on when I can refine it.

#38
Noctourne Wonderland

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Did Wizeman destroy Chamelan? If not, there's the possiblitity that Jackle is the result of Chamelan having lost magic after his defeat. It explains the lack of a body and the switch from magic playing cards to tarot.

#39
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I should just point out, a fairly recent (last 2 years) translation of Jackle's profile on the NiD PS2 site specifically says Jackle is a prototype first level maren. He came before Reala and NiGHTS, and was too chaotic to be trusted in the same role as them two.

#40
SmashQueen

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I should just point out, a fairly recent (last 2 years) translation of Jackle's profile on the NiD PS2 site specifically says Jackle is a prototype first level maren. He came before Reala and NiGHTS, and was too chaotic to be trusted in the same role as them two.

Wow. I also searched around and found the topic with the translation. To quote from the page on the translation:


His body concealed by a large cape, he is the most crazy Second-Level. Using bizzare means, by all costs he will make the Visitor fear him. When he's wearing his big cape, he's invincible and can repel any attacks. It is rumored that he is the result of a failed attempt at making a First Level Nightmaren...?

Awesome. ^^ Thank you Jof for pointing that out. Love the translation Tsunami did.

So if JoD happened first, then Jackle was locked away until needed in NiD. Vice versa, Jackle just irritated the heck out of everyone...but strangely not Wizeman... I'm still sticking with the theory that Jackle is either unconscious in the Night Dimension someplace, was banished, or was killed (it couldn't have been for long since Wizeman has such a strong connection with the nightmares/Nightmarens that they never die).

So theoretically, Jackle is still alive unless Wizeman killed the maniac at some point. In fact, there's a chance the other NiD Marens are still alive if the "NiGHTS Never Dies" theory has anything to add to this.

It wasn't such a bad idea opening this thread after all. ^^




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