13 replies to this topic

[Louis]

The NiGHTS community is the Sonic community. Give or take a few members it is the Sonic community. These are the same people who wanted a Shadow The Hedgehog game. These are the same people who think Sonic games need epic storylines about time travel and Iblis Triggers. And these are the same people who draw deep, emotional art featuring Sonic and Shadow nursing eachothers massive throbbing erections.

Of course, this is a generalization, a great big ugly category to sweep all of it's members under. However, it is evident that a similar mentality is shared between the two groups. Confusion. An average Sonic fan knows what he likes. Big 2D medeval futurisic worlds in 3D, with mute characters who talk about important world issues such as the economic state of China and how tall Big is. In contrast the NiGHTS community is firm that they a nice complex storyline consisting of nothing, well acted silent characters and, free-roaming on the rails gameplay and two new characters called Elliot and Claris who have blue and pink hair respectively.

Now, there isn't a NiGHTS fan alive who wants that, nor is there a Sonic fan who wants it. What there is however, is a lack of a consensus evident within both groups. The flurry of "What do you want from the new NiGHTS?" topics all over the internet clearly demonstrate it. Some want Journey of Dreams to be played from both sides, mirroring Sonic Adventure 2, while a nice idea in itself, it contradicts the simplicity of the first game, meaning a major rethink of the game. However, the game is a sequel, it should try new things. Keep in mind though, that for every fan supporting this idea, there is one who wants just the opposite. A simplistic, clear cut remake of Into Dreams. The same problem occurs with the characters. Many old fans want to see a return of Elliot and Claris, but is this out of interest for the quality of the game or simple nostalgia. The characters of Kevin and Helen present new oppertunities for Journey of Dreams, not seen in the rather shallow aspirations od Elliot and Claris, but if they were to take this oppertunity, there would be a fan outcry yet again.

Izuka makes constant reference to pleasing the fans, but just how can he with such an eclectic group? Does he satisfy the traditional fans or the new ones? The vast majority who enjoy the Sonic franchise or the minority who do not? Those who want the same game again or something a little new?

The sad answer is he can't. The NiGHTS fan community, whether they visit here or the countless other forums on the internet must come to terms with this before they can accept what Journey of Dreams is, not what they may think they want it to be

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The conclusion was a little crap and it was written subjectively, I'm included in these fans obviously.

Anyway, it's an interesting problem and one people seem to be sweeping under the carpet.

So yes, comments? Response essays? I'd really like this to be an decent discussion rather than a free for all.

[Huruyami]

You have a clear point. However, sonic fans may know, what they want in a new game, thats while sonic has had 20+ games to compare to and improve on, NiGHTS has had 1 (and a 1/2). So we will just have to wait to see what will happen.

[gsk]

The sad answer is he can't.

I disagree, I think it is possible. Sure there are countless pointless sequels, but Sega did it with Sonic 2, SoR2, and Panzer Dragon Zwei/Saga, Capcom did it with Street Fighter 2, Square with (some) Final Fantasy, Nintento with Mario 64, - I'm sure theres others. Sequels that surpass the originals and no right minded person can complain about - not common, but it happens.

JoD has the potential of improving on NiD (and as much of a fan as I am, its by no means a perfect game anyway). Its got the right people (in a way), with the right attitude (as far as we can tell), and it looks like they're trying to make a balance between old and new ideas, so the signs are good.

I see where you're coming from, but what you're talking about isnt unique for NiGHTS, its a dilemma of any follow up to any great game/film/album/fiction. In the end the team behind JoD are fans too... nice read though cheers

[Misaki-chan]

I really see your point on the Sonic franchise, Louis. I know, I'm a NiGHTS fan, and I've also loved Sonic since before NiGHTS was created.

What I think, though, is that Sega realizes that they're not pleasing everybody with the Sonic franchise. In my opinion, that's why they haven't even tried to do a NiGHTS sequel (except for the rumored Air NiGHTS) for so long. Yuji Naka especially was very vocal about not wanting to do a NiGHTS sequel until they could do something just as masterful and unique as the original. I'm sure Iizuka feels the same way, from what he's been saying.

Personally, I hope the fan opinions of NiGHTS aren't as divided as the opinions are of Sonic. I think the fact that NiGHTS has only had one game is actually helpful, in that way. The fans don't know what new features they may want, but they know they all want something like the original.

With Sonic, I've enjoyed most of what they've done with the series, even though it's far from perfect. If I want to go back to something they did before, I just play that game instead. I feel the same way about NiGHTS - if Claris and Elliot aren't in NJoD, I'll just be happy that they're in the original.

Another of my favorite Sega (and now Sonic Team) franchises is Space Channel 5. They improved on every aspect of it in Part 2, with enough new features to keep it new and interesting. But they still stayed true to the original formula. After reading the Nintendo Power article recently, I think that Iizuka is going for a similar mentality with NiGHTS.

An easy way to keep NiGHTS into Dreams purists happy would be to include an enhanced version of the original game in Journey of Dreams, or put it on the Wii's Virtual Console. Or they could do a Christmas NiGHTS style set of unlockables. I'm sure they've thought it through very carefully, if their goal is to keep the fans happy.

[infractus]

Izuka makes constant reference to pleasing the fans, but just how can he with such an eclectic group? Does he satisfy the traditional fans or the new ones? The vast majority who enjoy the Sonic franchise or the minority who do not? Those who want the same game again or something a little new?

The sad answer is he can't. The NiGHTS fan community, whether they visit here or the countless other forums on the internet must come to terms with this before they can accept what Journey of Dreams is, not what they may think they want it to be

You bring up some valid points, and my response is generated on whatever I've gathered throughout the last year or so that I *have* been involved with this game and the ideas behind it.

I have wondered very frequently if they're not just making the sequel to make people happy -- and when it comes down to that, it means that they are marketing just for those people and the sake of making money. I'd hate to see the idea sold out to merely the monetary aspect of it all. I do hope that they are making the sequel because they *WANT* to make the sequel, not for reasons previously stated.

I will admit, at first play -- I expected a different environment, and without the booklet with my copy of NiD from Amazon... that I was a bit lost without this website and other resources. I know at least one of my friends seemed to be disappointed.. I think it was one of those games you had to have played at the time it was released in order to get a sense for the advancement in technology they made ... most people I know skipped the Saturn phase and went straight for Playstation or N64 for a number of years before they advanced onto new gaming. That, in itself, brings up another topic for debate... but I digress.

My hopes lie within Izuka and the members making the game and sticking to the original concept and expanding it.. rather than just selling it out because that's the easiest way to make money and pretend to appease fans. There's much criticism behind it, no doubt.

But, sometimes I wonder if they're partially encouraging fans to jump out onto realms and tangents and trying to push them as far as we can. Questions needing answers. I wonder if they're saving a majority of the opinions thrown about until more is known about the semi-final stages of the game in terms of how the flow of plot in the game is going to be.

[Innotech]

I accepted whatever Journey of Dreams is the moment I paid for the preorder. Bring it on, whatever it is.

[Sage]

A nicely written essay, Louis. Good work. You bring up some some interesting points, but I have to agree with gsk: this predicament isn't occurring just to NiGHTS or Sonic. Anything popular is going to see some unrest among the fans. Some people want one thing, another group wants something else entirely, and yet another group doesn't mind either. As far as the Sonic franchise is concerned, I fit in the last category: I enjoyed all the games (I swear I'm one of a small number that actually loved Sonic Adventure 1 and 2).

As far as Journey of Dreams is concerned, I'll be happy with whatever comes of it. I'm amazed at what I've seen so far, so I'm sure I won't be too disappointed. More than anything, I'm just glad that a sequel is being made at all, and that the development team seems to be putting their hearts into it.

[Curiosity Inc.]

Louis, you know that Transformers movie coming up this summer? I've been following that for years. I've seen every production leak, I've read the message boards and I've argued with the fanboys. And the TF fans are about a gazillion times more worried and divided about that movie than any NiGHTS fan I've seen here about JoD.

If you think this is bad, you really should check out some of the message boards about Transformers or Star Trek. Trust me, as far as the purist/pro-change dilemma goes, we're in great shape. Everyone here is relatively on the same page and the developers are showing complete loyalty to the source material.

If my TF fanboy friends knew about this, they'd die of envy.

[wyldflowa]

(I swear I'm one of a small number that actually loved Sonic Adventure 1 and 2).

ME TOO! I really love those games~ I haven't played any that have been released past SA2 but I really liked them (the Sonic and Shadow levels at least XD).

To the point of the topic... I'm not sure what the point here is. The only real similarity between NiGHTS and Sonic is the creators... you can't really blanket NiGHTS fans as being a part of the Sonic fandom cos they're not; they're just NiGHTS fans. If you're speaking in terms of target audience then yes, the Sonic and NiGHTS fandom are bound to be part of the same demographic but not completely. And above all else they're very different games.

Creators generally make sequels of successful games because they know they'll sell. Sonic is Sonic, you stick his face on something and he'll sell - the same with Lara Croft, Crash Bandicoot and Mario. NiGHTS is a bit of a risk... although the game has apparently reached "legendary" status these days, outside of gaming circles the NiGHTS character and the whole concept behind the game is very new. No where near as many people recognize NiGHTS as they do other video game characters... they're basically releasing something totally new to the gaming world in the hope of it gaining huge popularity (kinda similar to NiGHTS' position when he was last released with the aim of saving the Saturn). This wouldn't be done if they didn't have confidence in the game's ability to draw in new fans and sell a vast number of units. I'd say something sappy about the love and commitment of the development team wanting to make something wonderful but the bottom line is, however much they love a franchise they wouldn't remake it if they didn't think it was going to appeal to a wider audience. If that means new characters and features that improve on the original then that's what'll happen.

I do agree with people here though - this fandom isn't very divided~ some people want old characters back, some people want sweeping plotlines, some people just want to fly around fast and get high scores. But universally people want something similar to the original. Good gameplay and an intriguing (if only suggested) storyline... but like I said, it's not about appealing to a fandom (heck, selling 200 copies, one for each member of these forums, is pretty much a given XD) but appealing to new fans who've never seen or heard of NiGHTS before. If they change things around yeah, some old fans would be angry but new fans...? They may embrace it~

[Ninja Liz-chan]

I most defently agree with the main essay. There's no way to please everybody all the time. That's the sad truth. Even if the new game is fantastic and amazing and a lot of people love it, they'll always be one person who will go "What have they DONE TO IT?!" I've deffently noticed that in the Sonic games anyway, even in a smaller circle. Between me and my boyfriend, he much rather go back to the way Sonic was, but seeing as the first Sonic game I ever owned was SA2, I like the way they are now. I actually quite enjoy the newer games myself. So I'm pretty sure I'll love the new NiGHTS game, even if it's nothing like the old game. Why? Because it's NiGHTS, thats all. I know a bunch of people will more than likely disagree but that's human nature. The main truth is I don't think anybody can clearly state weather or not this is what 'The fan's want' but that's the way things go. The only way you can please everybody, is if everybody was exactally the same. Scary thought eh?

[PRiNCE]

I think that they'll do a good job considering what I've seen so far. Like someone said, I'm just happy ther will be a sequel! Of course, they'll probably add a storyline with cutscenes, as is the wont of many people this day and age. But they'll probably make it a similar story to the original, or at least one that is simple and open ended.
Then there is the point of not being able to please everyone. Of course, not everyone will be pleased! Most of those people, however, are the ones that only look for faults in games and focus on those. That's what I think has happened with the Sonic fanbase. But most of us here will probably be pleased enough as it is.

[Innotech]

Louis, you know that Transformers movie coming up this summer? I've been following that for years. I've seen every production leak, I've read the message boards and I've argued with the fanboys. And the TF fans are about a gazillion times more worried and divided about that movie than any NiGHTS fan I've seen here about JoD.

If you think this is bad, you really should check out some of the message boards about Transformers or Star Trek. Trust me, as far as the purist/pro-change dilemma goes, we're in great shape. Everyone here is relatively on the same page and the developers are showing complete loyalty to the source material.

If my TF fanboy friends knew about this, they'd die of envy.

heh. I know EXACTLY what you mean. I have some acquaintances and friends who are very into the transfandom. They are ridiculously divided over the new movie and seem to hate the fact that its basically a giant whoring out to certain car manufacturers and the original vehicles are sometimes changed altogether. but NiGHTS is different in that you can change the elements, such as enemies, some characters, bosses, worlds, without ruining the feel of the game. This TF movie seems to be changing the entire TF universe and not caring a whit. but I dont care about TF past the toys I used to have so Im much more anxious for NiGHTS JOD. In fact, I think about this game INCESSANTLY. Every single day since its announcement Ive been scouring the net, magzines, everything for more information, for mentions of NiGHTS, and especially the rapidly abundant NiGHTS vids on Youtube to reminisce with. you could say my fandom has been reawakened and in full swing. Prior to that I was literally imagining the day they would announce a game for the Wii, so sure I was that one was coming (I mean seriously, how could Sega have passed up this opportuninty?) and before the wii I occasionally would imagine how a sequel would be. I guess I just didnt imagine videogames to progress to motion sensing so soon.

[universalperson]

Ah, but a large amount of the Sonic fandom wants better camera angles.

[Curiosity Inc.]

Ah, but a large amount of the Sonic fandom wants better camera angles.

I'll assume your point is that the camera angles in Sonic games haven't gotten any better despite those complaints.

Personally, I don't think that's for lack of trying. It's not that Sonic Team is ignoring the calls for better camera controls, it's just that for lack of talent, lack of time or any number of reasons, Sonic Team can't do a thing about it.

This, I believe, is where Secret Rings came from. Ever since Sonic came out in 3D, there have been several complaints about two primary things: 1)The times when the adrenaline rush stops and Sonic has to solve some puzzle, and 2) The unwieldy camera. I believe that after hearing those complaints and after so many failed attempts to solve them, Sonic Team finally went "Fine! If they don't want Sonic to stop, let's throw out the areas where he stops! We can just put him on rails and let 'im fly."

"They have problems with the camera movement? Fine. From now on, there is no more camera movement. It's fixed. There."