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Nights and Reala's relationship (discuss)


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#81
DAiLiGHT

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DAiLiGHT: How about you send me the 12 page story online and I'll draw it out? *winces* (Did you draw it already?) I would love to draw it out. *Admits not having the best drawing skills, but get around fairly okay* Just an idea...


Already did draw it out and I have a copy for you (I made another copy) but I own no scanner. Blah.

#82
animejosse

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*admin-hat* DAiLiGHT and Dreamy, if you're going to continue your discussion on the story could you please take it to the PM:s so this won't get too off-topic? Thank you.

#83
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*slaps self with fish*

Okay.

Anyway, back on topic before admins begin to give me the stink-eye....

I think NiGHTS really loves Reala (brotherly-like, brotherly) but keeps it to himself usually because Reala hates him so much.

#84
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Hmm, this makes me think, if Wizeman were somehow eliminated without eliminating NiGHTS and Reala...would their rivalry dissapear? Would Reala come to cease hating NiGHTS over what he did to Wizeman?

#85
animejosse

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Going by JoD, my guess is "probably not". Not that easily anyway. Even if we assume the rivalry was started because of Wizeman, Reala's still very loyal to him - if anything, Wizeman's death might make Reala hate NiGHTS ever more.

DAiLiGHT, you have a point. NiGHTS did ask Reala if he was alright after their first battle, I doubt he'd do that unless he at least cared about him.

#86
Murasaki Doku

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Now that you mention it...if Wizeman ceased to exist, then someone would probably end up taking his place. Probably Reala, unless Wizey has some sort of game plan for in case that happens.

#87
DiGi Valentine

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There's too much beef in the world. NiGHTS and Reala should get married.

#88
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You know, i actualy read a fanfic about that once lol.

My stance on NiGHTS and Reala couplings is pretty obvious. I'd be a giant hypocrite to say I'm against it as i used to draw/write a lot of it myself. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all of the fandom, just that it's fan stuff and emotion that keeps interest alive. I don't get upset when i see any of it because I've seen so much of it that I'm neutral. Opinions are opinons and we all have them, even if it makes us want to maul eachother for various reasons at times. One mans poison and all that.

It's all good as long as it's not flat out insulting. Fans will be fans.
Still adore NiGHTS even if the next person is drawing him and Donbalon prancing through fields of poppies and sparkles.

I think JoD made the pairing more plausible if you ask me. Though I'm not sure if that was intentional XD; Poor NiGHTS!

#89
DiGi Valentine

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I'll be the best man.

#90
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Now that you mention it...if Wizeman ceased to exist, then someone would probably end up taking his place. Probably Reala, unless Wizey has some sort of game plan for in case that happens.


And if Reala took over...well, I think we all know what would happen then.

#91
Murasaki Doku

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I think JoD made the pairing more plausible if you ask me. Though I'm not sure if that was intentional XD; Poor NiGHTS!

I think JoD made [anyone]xReala possible. He's an awfully...grabby guy, ifyanowhatimsayin'. Is there a character he doesn't touch? Or maybe I'm looking into it too far; maybe he just wanted to show off his faaaaaabulous nails.

I'll be the best man.

Dibs on catering.

#92
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I think NiGHTS and Reala's relationship is pretty straightforward, they're just flat-out rivals, there doesn't appear to be a great deal of hate from either side, Reala is just doing his job for Wizeman and NiGHTS is trying to stop him, if Reala truly hated NiGHTS he would have gone out of his way to stop himself right from the very start, plus Reala tends to taunt NiGHTS in a more rivalish way than a hatred way, an example of this is in Memory Forest where he tells Helen NiGHTS is a Nightmaren.

#93
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I'll be the best man.


Why would I pay money to see that? *snickersnort*


And if Reala took over...well, I think we all know what would happen then.


F*$^ING NINJAS EVERYWHERE!!!!! YEEHAW!!!

#94
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Now that you mention it...if Wizeman ceased to exist, then someone would probably end up taking his place. Probably Reala, unless Wizey has some sort of game plan for in case that happens.


If Wizeman ceased to exist, then wouldn't that mean that all nightmarens ceased to exist? I mean, when NiGHTS defeated Wizeman, NiGHTS disappeared; wouldn't Reala disappear as well?

I think NiGHTS and Reala's relationship is pretty straightforward, they're just flat-out rivals, there doesn't appear to be a great deal of hate from either side, Reala is just doing his job for Wizeman and NiGHTS is trying to stop him, if Reala truly hated NiGHTS he would have gone out of his way to stop himself right from the very start, plus Reala tends to taunt NiGHTS in a more rivalish way than a hatred way, an example of this is in Memory Forest where he tells Helen NiGHTS is a Nightmaren.


I still have to agree with this notion. Who knows what happened before, and we'll only know more when Sega comes clean. lol *come on I know YOU know* Until then, yeah I guess we could keep guessing.

And about the wedding; I'll take care of the flowers!


#95
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I call catering. I can cook a mean ham n cheese yes I can yes I can.

#96
Murasaki Doku

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If Wizeman ceased to exist, then wouldn't that mean that all nightmarens ceased to exist? I mean, when NiGHTS defeated Wizeman, NiGHTS disappeared; wouldn't Reala disappear as well?


I think Wizeman was just on his high horse when he said that. After all, all of Nightmare is sustained by Ideya--not Wizeman. I think he's just the sole one that is able to create things from Ideya...and that power probably gets to his head. Kind of like, "I brought you out of this world, and I can take you out of it too!"

@Dailight: I called dibs. >=( Besides, Nightopians In A Blanket would be far more popular.

#97
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F*$^ING NINJAS EVERYWHERE!!!!! YEEHAW!!!


Don't forget about the M.J.L.W.I.T.A.J.L.C.W.A.S.S.I.s!!!

#98
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OMG! Reala would be leader of the M.J.L.W.I.T.A.J.L.C.W.A.S.S.I.s!!! NiGHTS would be co-leader and they would have happy funtiems! Or they could just hate each other as they have been since 1996.

What did that stand for again? :lol:

#99
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TheOrangeNightmare and DAiLiGHT, you're getting off-topic again. Do this again and I will raise your warning levels.

#100
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TheOrangeNightmare and DAiLiGHT, you're getting off-topic again. Do this again and I will raise your warning levels.


Okay, okay!

I think Wizeman was just on his high horse when he said that. After all, all of Nightmare is sustained by Ideya--not Wizeman. I think he's just the sole one that is able to create things from Ideya...and that power probably gets to his head. Kind of like, "I brought you out of this world, and I can take you out of it too!"


...and THAT is why NiGHTS has survived both explosions of Nightmare yes yes.

#101
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*whistles* Just read through this entire topic, and there are some very good points and theories...
I agree mostly with Meggiemacat, iLLViLLAiN, and Saphira. I'll elaborate on my own opinions and hopefully you'll see why. ^^


I believe that NiGHTS and Reala can indeed be considered "brothers", in the sense that they were both created at the same exclusive level and assumedly around the same time, causing a closeness by default. Heck, they even refer to each other as "siblings" in the game.
I also believe that, in the beginning, they were both completely loyal to their father and really lived as true Nightmaren-- ferocious, frightening, and all that.

However, both NiGHTS and Reala are "equal in ability" (although NiGHTS is later stated as being somewhat superior to Reala in this respect) but of "opposing character", as it says right in the JP manual. Reala is naturally cruel and brutal, and remains absolutely loyal to Wizeman even today.
NiGHTS has a bit of a personality problem, though. Once again, the Japanese manual states clearly that NiGHTS has a "free, wild character" along with the "craziness of the original Nightmaren." He doesn't like restriction, doesn't enjoy being told what to do and who to follow, and originally seemed to want nothing more than freedom from his father's power by any means.
Cue the manual again, it mentions that "the free, wild character of this individual suffers much misfortune." NiGHTS is also not only the most gifted but the most powerful Nightmaren that Wizeman created. I assume that former statement is hinting that NiGHTS literally felt imprisoned by this role as 'daddy's favorite', despite the prestige and power, as he constantly had to live up to expectations and guidelines. Undoubtedly that was the catalyst for his imminent mutiny, and a huge factor in why he still won't go back today.

Note this, though, and let's get back on topic-- it is stated as canon information that Reala was responsible for NiGHTS' imprisonment, although the actual confinement was Wizeman's doing. Reala undoubtedly envies NiGHTS bitterly simply for his superiority and rank, and is both understandably hurt and furious because he so carelessly tossed it all aside for personal interests. Reala would kill for NiGHTS' position, and this absolute refusal of it by the purple 'Maren-- along with his tendency to openly and frequently oppose his own father-- enraged Reala enough for him to literally disown his brother ("There is no NiGHTS!") and join Wizeman in throwing him out of Nightmare.

However, I feel I must add a little more on NiGHTS' and Reala's current situations with their recent JoD actions. It has been mentioned several times in this topic that NiGHTS apparently displays concern for his brother, and vice versa. Well, geez, it's been over ten years since his initial rebellion, maybe they've all mellowed out somewhat? (Except for Wizeman, of course-- he's become much worse and much angrier...)
Also, even though NiGHTS may have originally aided all 4 dreamers with a large amount of selfish interest, he truly seems to develop some real concern for their own well-being over time. He may always be a nasty Level 1 at heart, but NiGHTS has definitely learned how to be kind and caring, has learned how to think of others rather than himself. Reala hasn't learned this yet, simply because he hasn't had much chance and because he's naturally a nasty guy. There is some evidence of more positive qualities in him now, though... you all mentioned his nonviolent dialogues with his brother, and the fact that he gives him many chances to change his mind and return to Wizeman instead of just dragging him back there by force, although he has indeed threatened to do so.
That previous paragraph, though, just adds more fuel to the fire on the vast differences between NiGHTS and Reala's personalities. NiGHTS is playful, carefree, and hates any sort of restriction. Reala is all business, takes his work very seriously, and lives by the rules his father has set. The two just don't work well together, at all.
Personally, I don't think NiGHTS and Reala can ever truly hate each other, although they sure as heck can seem like it from time to time!
One thing is true, though, and that is that they will always be bitter rivals. That's a given.

So there you go. Opinion, explanation, and backing proof. Sibling rivalry to the extreme.

Sorry about the ludicrous amount of words there! I tend to elaborate a little much...

#102
Murasaki Doku

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However, I feel I must add a little more on NiGHTS' and Reala's current situations with their recent JoD actions. It has been mentioned several times in this topic that NiGHTS apparently displays concern for his brother, and vice versa. Well, geez, it's been over ten years since his initial rebellion, maybe they've all mellowed out somewhat? (Except for Wizeman, of course-- he's become much worse and much angrier...)


Perhaps it could be said that NiGHTS and Reala aren't as likely to hold grudges as Wizeman is? Or maybe Wizeman has more of a reason to stew in his anger?

Wizeman: RRRRGH. *aneurysm*
Reala: Easy, man. Just chill out. Breathe with me. In...out. In...ou--
Wizeman: WE HAVE NO LUNGS, STUPID.
Reala: And whose fault is that, hmm?



#103
spinningcannon

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Perhaps it could be said that NiGHTS and Reala aren't as likely to hold grudges as Wizeman is? Or maybe Wizeman has more of a reason to stew in his anger?

Mm, definitely more of a reason, you're right. After all, NiGHTS is really Wizeman's prized creation. To have him just blow Wize off and go about his own business is really a painful experience, and seems to justify a good deal of the big guy's anger.
Plus Wizeman really seems like the type of guy to hold a grudge for ages. Reala maybe a little moreso than NiGHTS, but I don't think either of them would be able to stay so furious for so long a time.
Very good idea, though! It's something to think about.


Wizeman: RRRRGH. *aneurysm*
Reala: Easy, man. Just chill out. Breathe with me. In...out. In...ou--
Wizeman: WE HAVE NO LUNGS, STUPID.
Reala: And whose fault is that, hmm?

That made me burst out laughing at 1:30 AM. XD Epic win.

#104
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Wizeman really seems like the type of guy to hold a grudge for ages.


Like the grudge on NiGHTS that he held for, what was it? 9000 years. Yes.

#105
Murasaki Doku

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Mm, definitely more of a reason, you're right. After all, NiGHTS is really Wizeman's prized creation. To have him just blow Wize off and go about his own business is really a painful experience, and seems to justify a good deal of the big guy's anger.
Plus Wizeman really seems like the type of guy to hold a grudge for ages. Reala maybe a little moreso than NiGHTS, but I don't think either of them would be able to stay so furious for so long a time.
Very good idea, though! It's something to think about.

It leads me to wonder if your "Reala's envy" theory, if true, has "run out". It looks like he's second-in-command, under Wizeman, in JoD. With that in mind, there's no reason for Reala to be jealous of NiGHTS's superiority, and the only reason he gets all up in NiGHTS's business is because Wizeman tells him to.

That made me burst out laughing at 1:30 AM. XD Epic win.


MISHUN AKOMPLISHED

#106
spinningcannon

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It leads me to wonder if your "Reala's envy" theory, if true, has "run out". It looks like he's second-in-command, under Wizeman, in JoD. With that in mind, there's no reason for Reala to be jealous of NiGHTS's superiority, and the only reason he gets all up in NiGHTS's business is because Wizeman tells him to.

Once again, very interesting thought, and very possible.
He really is top of the line now that NiGHTS called it quits, true... hm. And Wizeman is indeed the guy barking orders.
I can't help but feel Reala is still a little miffed about his sibling, though-- maybe just as simple irritation for him never listening and so getting Reala into deep trouble. As always, it's all open to speculation.

You're right; Reala doesn't seem at all concerned about NiGHTS' rank or position... his main concern is bringing NiGHTS back to their father so nobody has to pay the price. And as I stated earlier, there's definitely a marked decrease in animosity between the two, even though there's still that infamous sibling rivalry constantly in play.
But I do agree with your suggestion; Reala's envy, at least, has most likely run out.

Any more ideas? I'm thoroughly enjoying this. ^^

#107
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Any more ideas? I'm thoroughly enjoying this. ^^

I'm enjoying reading this, even if I don't agree with all your points... but that's more to do with me seeing JoD as seperate from NiD and what my preferences are rather than actual disagreement. I very much liked how you weaved canon facts from both of the games together to support your theory. Right now I don't have anything to add but a nitpick:

Well, geez, it's been over ten years since his initial rebellion[...]

It's been over ten years since the first game was released. We don't actually know when the games are taking place, if JoD takes place before or after NiD, or how many years has passed between the games - that is, if it's not an alternate universe.

So, something to play with: If we assume that NiD takes place before JoD, then sinningcannon's theory about NiGHTS and Reala's relationship makes sense. Can the same still be said if JoD takes place before NiD?

#108
DAiLiGHT

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I always thought of the games going in chronological order like that, but then again I think all the Links from all the Legend of Zelda games are all brothers on their own adventures.

But I do think NiD comes before JoD, and I also think that Reala has had a long time to stew in his anger and hatred.... and apparently has had time in between there to update his wardrobe.

Anyway, I think that Reala is almost, well, jealous of NiGHTS' freedom. It's like "Hey, NiGHTS got to leave, why not me?" And is now jealous of his brother's freedom and, although he is loyal to Wizeman and would never run away like NiGHTS did, is secretly envious of that freedom. Just a little. And that envy turned to hate, which is why Reala traps NiGHTS in a cage every so often, to try to relieve his own jealousy. It's like now, "Okay. Now NiGHTS is confined like I am, so I feel a little better about myself." sort of thing.

I wonder if Wizeman notices.

#109
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Anyway, I think that Reala is almost, well, jealous of NiGHTS' freedom. It's like "Hey, NiGHTS got to leave, why not me?" And is now jealous of his brother's freedom and, although he is loyal to Wizeman and would never run away like NiGHTS did, is secretly envious of that freedom. Just a little. And that envy turned to hate, which is why Reala traps NiGHTS in a cage every so often, to try to relieve his own jealousy. It's like now, "Okay. Now NiGHTS is confined like I am, so I feel a little better about myself." sort of thing.


Agreed. Then he keeps NiGHTS in there until he can get reinforcements to join him in locking up the little showoff!

#110
Murasaki Doku

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It's been over ten years since the first game was released. We don't actually know when the games are taking place, if JoD takes place before or after NiD, or how many years has passed between the games - that is, if it's not an alternate universe.

So, something to play with: If we assume that NiD takes place before JoD, then sinningcannon's theory about NiGHTS and Reala's relationship makes sense. Can the same still be said if JoD takes place before NiD?


It wouldn't be so far-fetched to think that things that time is relative in the Night Dimension. After all, when we dream, an hour can seem to go by when we've only been sleeping for five minutes, and vise versa. That being said, the time that has passed between NiD and JoD could be minutes, hours, years, centuries...we'll never know.

But...as far as JoD happening before NiD...I just can't figure it. Not that I have any concrete arguments that NiD happened first, other than Reala's movement up the chain of command, and the development of more refined outfits. They both kind of look like they're older...to me, anyway.

#111
TheOrangeNightmare

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It wouldn't be so far-fetched to think that things that time is relative in the Night Dimension. After all, when we dream, an hour can seem to go by when we've only been sleeping for five minutes, and vise versa. That being said, the time that has passed between NiD and JoD could be minutes, hours, years, centuries...we'll never know.


Sounds like Narnia :D
1 year=1000 years

#112
Hoban

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*Just random ^^; But I read somewhere before that what Reala's saying isn't english, and that it was roughly translated as him actually saying, "Ready to run, NiGHTS?" Or something along those lines. It would make sense, really. So would be that ,"There is no NiGHTS" when taken in the same kind of context as he getting angry at NiGHTS and denying him as a sibling. That the NiGHTS he once knew was gone, and all that was left was this person trying to ruin all that he and their father have worked so hard for.

*And NiGHTS apparently wasn't really a good guy to begin with, he just didn't agree with Wizeman and what he was trying to do. He could have been locked away as if Wizeman were giving him a time-out to reconsider and give him another chance. If my dad locked me up in some cage, I'd be pretty mad too. And so comes the teenage rebellion. Because most other Nightmarens didn't really have their own consciousness or free will, he wouldn't have so much guilt "disposing" of them as they probably weren't really people to begin with, per se. Like mindless drones with no thoughts or feelings.


...


*Last one, I swear XD Although I think of NiGHTS as female but refer to him as male, I prefer he be referred to as a boy because wouldn't the others saying "she" and "her" and "that's a good girl" make most of the people in the world's brains explode? It's just easier this way, and it's pretty much an unwritten law somewhere that "he" can either refer to an actual male, or either genders if none is really set. Calling him an "it" wouldn't be so nice, it's like saying he's just a thing and not a person.




As for everything else, while my opinion is pretty much the same, some people here actually had some incredible (atleast to me) points and theories and arguments to back it up. I always thought Reala simply obeyed Wizeman partly because of fear rather than completely loyalty and respect. I swear you can see it in his eyes, like he's scared and nervous of being destroyed or punished in some horrible way. And I've noticed a lot of things like he calling NiGHTS sibling and coming to him on more peaceful terms rather than ripping at him right away. Heck, he even warns NiGHTS several times and says that Wizeman is very mad.

It seems to me that he would rather have his comrade in one piece by the end of the day. Afterall, he's always imprisoning NiGHTS instead of having the heart to drag him back and possibly be killed or severely punished and trying to convince him to return to their side. And telling him about Cerberus was certainly a good motive to cause him to panic and look for a way out of the Ideya palace. (He could have been doing that to make him more serious and intent on escape, or possibly to laugh at him and mess with his mind.)

To my knowledge, NiGHTS is sensitive to red Ideya and is drawn to it. I don't think the same has been said about Reala. NiGHTS is valuable as he can be used to seek out what Wizeman wants, while Reala has the brute force and ability to steal it. This makes them a good team. Maybe it was through their teamwork alone that some feelings of friendship began, which is what made it hard in the future for either to truly destroy eachother. They worked together so well, and either one being eliminated could be like losing a part of themselves (they do seem so different as to be two halves of one being, eh?)

But in the end, seeing how Reala could have hurt or destroyed the people that NiGHTS has come to accept as true friends, maybe he finally opened his eyes and realized that Reala was no longer a friend, sibling or even a comrade. They were truly enemies, and it was time for him to step-up and defend the people who really mattered to him and who cared about him as well.

#113
animejosse

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Anyway, I think that Reala is almost, well, jealous of NiGHTS' freedom. It's like "Hey, NiGHTS got to leave, why not me?" And is now jealous of his brother's freedom and, although he is loyal to Wizeman and would never run away like NiGHTS did, is secretly envious of that freedom. Just a little. And that envy turned to hate, which is why Reala traps NiGHTS in a cage every so often, to try to relieve his own jealousy. It's like now, "Okay. Now NiGHTS is confined like I am, so I feel a little better about myself." sort of thing.

I wonder if Wizeman notices.

I like that theory! That jealousy might even be unconscious, so Reala thinks he hates NiGHTS when he's in fact jealous over his freedom. If Wizeman notices it (which I personally think he would) then he either 1. ignores it as long as it doesn't interfere with his plans or 2. use that to his advantage.

But...as far as JoD happening before NiD...I just can't figure it. Not that I have any concrete arguments that NiD happened first, other than Reala's movement up the chain of command, and the development of more refined outfits. They both kind of look like they're older...to me, anyway.

Like you, I can't really explain why I think JoD could happen before NiD. In fact I mostly see it as seperate, but that's mostly the lack of any "this has happened before" and... hm, could've sworn there were some inconsistencies as well. Must've been minor.

*Just random ^^; But I read somewhere before that what Reala's saying isn't english, and that it was roughly translated as him actually saying, "Ready to run, NiGHTS?" Or something along those lines. It would make sense, really.

So I'm not the only who's heard about that! I almost thought I imagined that.

I wish I had something more to add to the rest of your post other than "Your theories are interesting and I like them", but unfortunately I don't.

#114
TheOrangeNightmare

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*Just random ^^; But I read somewhere before that what Reala's saying isn't english, and that it was roughly translated as him actually saying, "Ready to run, NiGHTS?" Or something along those lines. It would make sense, really. So would be that ,"There is no NiGHTS" when taken in the same kind of context as he getting angry at NiGHTS and denying him as a sibling.


I always thought he was saying "The magic of flight!"

#115
Hoban

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That's okay XD Heck, I'm giddy because nobody's ever quoted me before

#116
venomnights15

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Night's and Reala's relationship from what i have seen in jod is that Reala hates nights but shows it in a more sadistic bad guy way. Nights views Reala more as an annoyance because nights is not afraid and always come out on top. The only time when nights get mad at reala is when the topic of nights is a nigtmaren comes up or when reala threatens the visitors. that just my view of things

#117
DAiLiGHT

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I kind of like that theory, but let me add a bit of my two cents in there.

I believe that Reala does not indeed hate NiGHTS, but is only really acting on Wizeman's orders. He does say "Nothing personal." early on in Helen's story. But perhaps he could have just been being a smartass. But I do believe that Reala's still got some lingering smoulder of, well, not love, perhaps, more of a, hmm.... maybe, longing? Sort of longing for any sort of contact with NiGHTS, as so to sort of, well-- and not trying to make Reala sound emo here but-- to keep himself going for just that much longer? I always saw the two as being two halves of one Maren, like, maybe Wizeman meant to only create one but the creation process went awry and the one split into two totally seperate people, and that staying too far from NiGHTS for too long (and vice versa on NiGHTS' end) would weaken their power, so to speak. I always saw the two as having a special bond, y'know, but not like a OMG I WANT TO MARRY YOU AND MAKE KISSY FACE ALL NIGHT AND HAVE YOUR BABY bond, or not even like a HEY UR MY BRUTHER LETS GO OUT AND PLAY HOPSCOTCH kind of bond, but perhaps a bond that neither of them truly really realize is even there that perhaps they (and most of the fangirls) mistake as a kind of love.

On NiGHTS' end, I think he sees Reala as his brother, and wants to sort of make up for leaving. I mean, NiGHTS was really only leaving Wizeman, right? I don't think NiGHTS really thought his plan through when he decided to fly out the window and never come back. I think he sort of just said, "I gotta get outta here" and forgot about Reala completely until it was too late, and now feels bad about leaving Reala behind and tries to get closer to him. I admit he gets a little snippy at our favorite lipstick-wearing baddy in JoD, but I guess it's only because, well, here was NiGHTS having a nice day with a Dreamer and suddenly here comes Mr. Happy Freakin' Sunshine with a cage a total of six times to ruin all the fun. No matter how much I loved my brother (not that I have one, being an only child and all, but whatever), I'd still get a little snippy if I'm in the middle of something important and my twin brother locked me up in a goddamn cage while he goes out and does Mareny things.

And that's my true, 100%, no wiseass comments guaranteed (well, maybe not guaranteed) take on their relationship. Thank you for flying Air DAiLiGHT, please place your trays in the upright position and prepare for landing. Thank you and have a nice day.

#118
Hoban

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I demand a refund, I didn't get my complementary packet of peanuts >:D


But I love that theory XD A bit similar to what I was thinking, but definitely something different to think about




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