Theories and Mysteries of JoD

A theory is a theory, even a small one. I also apologize for double posting, but it has been a while.

JoD Before NiD Theory 5: Power in Life Choices

So by JoD before NiD standards, it has been theorized that Wizeman had constricted resources by the time Elliot and Claris entered the scene. During NiGHTS' time as a rebel he gained some pretty good power. I submit that as Wizeman's resources drained, the power of Reala and NiGHTS fluctuated. Reala weakened while NiGHTS grew stronger. How is that? To begin, the first proof (for the latter at least) is in the Personas.

In JoD, NiGHTS required certain Personas to transform while in NiD he didn't need them at all. Yes the Personas were a new feature in JoD game-wise, but you can't deny NiGHTS' strength in NiD. Here's a short comparison of his power between both games.

NiD
Paralooping - Harms everything, Marens and Pians included.
Drill Dashing - Being quick in a Mare, breaking down a shield of Wizeman's no matter where, defeating First-, Second-, and Third-Levels, and moving through obstacles.
Transformation - Personas? What Personas? Let's go bobsledding!

JoD
Paralooping - Used mainly for collecting things, Marens, or Pians. The last two could be kept like frenzied (or playful) pets. Seldom used to defeat a Second-Level.
Drill Dashing - Being quick in a Mare, racing, ramming into Wizeman's barrier in the final battle, defeating Second-Levels, and moving through obstacles.
Transformation - Need a Persona half the time.
(Sorry if I missed anything.)

As well, take into account that in JoD NiGHTS was chained up while in NiD he was protected by a shield of Nightmare energy. And should we forget NiGHTS' EXTREME TEETH? Even in Sonic Riders it was an important factor in a race. He got so strong, those pearly whites were a danger themselves.

NiGHTS is more elastic in NiD and therefore may find it easier to transform than in Journey of Dreams. Also in NID, NiGHTS sometimes displays a rebellious side to the Visitor. As mentioned in this topic if you "abuse" NiGHTS enough (teasing him that you won't dualize with him by making him bump his head in the gazebo) he will refuse to dualize with you when you actually want to get on with it. This is unlike in JoD (as far as I know) where NiGHTS will dualize regardless of what you do as if eager to go crush Wizeman (like playing a game for the first time, one becomes really excited to do something as soon as possible). He's more arrogant which wouldn't be surprising if he thought he had enough power to take down Wizeman (having already done it once). [Note: I thought the "teasing" thing was interesting and it seemed that, when interpreted to NiD coming after JoD, it fit right in to be mentioned.]

So the question is: how does NiGHTS' power relate to Wizeman and Reala? Simple. As the forces of the Nightmare King weaken, the strength of the opposing forces get stronger one way or another.

But wait! NiGHTS is a Nightmaren, so if Wizeman weakens, shouldn't NiGHTS weaken too? Well this could in turn be directed at JoD in a similar way. In JoD, Reala had more power than NiGHTS (like with the Mare Balloons) and NiGHTS was weaker. In NiD, it was the other way around. Perhaps since Reala depended on Wizeman's power, he wasn't able to develop much of his own. NiGHTS on the other hand depended on his own powers and that of the Dreamers to go against Wizeman. Thus by being independent, NiGHTS was able to increase the power of his abilities, even slightly (like with Drill Dashing). Without connecting himself to Wizeman's power like Reala, he was able to become stronger to the point where his near-harmless paralooping became a tool of mass destruction (those poor Nightopians).

Of course for NiD to JoD, NiGHTS could have just become weaker. How? Maybe not enough Nightmare energy sustaining him.
---
This is what happens when you think about NiGHTS while doing laundry.

As mentioned in the topic "Ending of NiGHTS JOD" when reiterating the theory of "NiGHTS Never Dies, I stumbled across a brief train of thought. It's simple, but as I've said "a theory is a theory, even a small one."

Miscellaneous Mysteries/Theories

Wizeman's Power Fluctuations

In all this, it's safe to assume that Wizeman will keep coming back with NiGHTS, Reala, etc. Of course, as long as there are Dreamers, there will be Nightopias. The World of Dreams isn't about to collapse in on itself. It's just a never-ending cycle that ultimately helps Visitors become stronger in the end (assuming that the Dreamers get to the end of course).

...Actually, going on that train of thought...

JoD Before NiD...
Wizeman continues to lose against Visitors and thus cannot regain his powers as he once had.

NiD Before JoD...
Wizeman [begins] to win continuously against Visitors and thus gains power.

The amount of Visitors winning or losing is just one possibility of how Wizeman's power is determined. Since winning against Wizeman means a defeat for Nightmare (and consequently less Dreamers being afraid or vulnerable), the Wicked being's power diminishes without outlets to terrorize and such.

Less power, less Nightmarens, Reala gets assigned to Second-Level work.

Note: This theory is subject to change. Might be added to at a later date.

(I apologize for the double post. Also, this might make less sense in the morning. x_x)

Edit 1: Okay, since Wizeman will always exist as long as there is darkness in the hearts of Visitors, he has to have a base limit of power. The win-lose ratio with Dreamers may just be one of many factors determining just how powerful Wizeman can be.

I have nothing against creating a theory for theory's sake(it's fun, I know), but if people want to base their theories on presented facts in the games... I find it ridiculous to use deleted scenes to support it.
Those scenes were deleted for a reason, you know. They aren't canon, AND Sonic-Team/SEGA doesn't see them as such(the reason why these scenes got deleted in the first place).

Just my opinion though. Sorry if I offended someone, it wasn't my intenttion.

I have nothing against creating a theory for theory's sake(it's fun, I know), but if people want to base their theories on presented facts in the games... I find it ridiculous to use deleted scenes to support it.
Those scenes were deleted for a reason, you know. They aren't canon, AND Sonic-Team/SEGA doesn't see them as such(the reason why these scenes got deleted in the first place).

Just my opinion though. Sorry if I offended someone, it wasn't my intenttion.

That's a fair point. However, the scenes in question were cut because of time-constraints, and not because they were not wanted. They might have been the least important scenes (and thus easier to axe) but they were in the game for a reason at one point. Had SonicTeam had longer than a year to work on the game, I can guarantee they'd have been in.

This brings up an excellent point- can Wizeman really be defeated? I doubt that Claris became the world's saviour after NiD, so going by his rules, Wizeman shuld have returned less than a second after he "died." Your thoughts?

Thank you Jof for clearing that up. Had the scenes been left out for any other reason, I wouldn't have referred to them.

Really wish those scenes had made it though. They'd be more than just deleted!canon.

As for Wizeman's return from "death"... Well now, we don't know how quick he can go from "blob o' darkness" to "formerly robed" do we? He does return, but...Hmm. Perhaps he was just "banished" from the dreams of the Visitors who won against him? I personally question how weak Wizeman is after a whupping from the Visitors. That's quite an inquiry on the conditions on Wizeman's powers...

For Wizeman... Huh.... His power is quite a mystery. There's more than one factor to it... I don't think anyone could possibly understand it completely.

- Wizeman cannot 'die' (at least not permanently)
- He has a base limit of power
- Time flows differently in the World of Dreams

By those three points, I'd have to guess that the amount of time it takes for Wizeman to come back varies. There's really no telling how long it takes for him to have a form again. Then again, does he need that usual, robed form to operate Nightmare? Could Wizeman control his forces while still a "blob o' darkness"?

Then there are Waking World factors such as 'the darkness in the hearts of men.' The greater it is in the Waking World, the greater chance of Wizeman gaining power in the World of Dreams. I think. There's nothing really backing that up. Pure speculation.

There's another question: "How does the Waking World influence the World of Dreams?" (Besides the obvious 'reflections of heart' that are the Nightopias and "My Dream".)

[Please excuse me, contemplating Wizeman's power leaves the mind whirling.]

Question: What is the darkness that Wizeguy speaks of? I would assume it's a lack of ideya, because Ideya apparently produce light. Here's a fact: When Helen gets scared in Bellbridge, the Ideya of Courage leaves her. This implies that something similar happens for other Ideya; feel hopless, there goes yellow, feel impure, whoops, white's out. If you do that with all of the Ideya for a visitor, then hey, you've got an impure, cowardly, hopeless, unintelligent, stunted dude, and don't that sound dark now? So by stealing Ideya, Wizeman's not only destroying nightopia, but ADDING TO HIS OWN POWER.

And now for something completely different.

Owl, Wizeman, Cerebus, and Octopaw. What do they have in common? They're all brothers. Or rather, they're all archetype type thingymajig type things. Owl is clearly a mentor figure, all knowledge and no action. Wizeman is the big bad evil guy that all stories have. Big, bad, and evil. Cerebus.... well, he's a representation of a different kind of evil, maybe blind rage or endless hunger. And Octopaw? The unknown. Curiosity. Exploration.

Question: What is the darkness that Wizeguy speaks of? I would assume it's a lack of ideya, because Ideya apparently produce light. Here's a fact: When Helen gets scared in Bellbridge, the Ideya of Courage leaves her. This implies that something similar happens for other Ideya; feel hopless, there goes yellow, feel impure, whoops, white's out. If you do that with all of the Ideya for a visitor, then hey, you've got an impure, cowardly, hopeless, unintelligent, stunted dude, and don't that sound dark now? So by stealing Ideya, Wizeman's not only destroying nightopia, but ADDING TO HIS OWN POWER.

O_O That's...very perceptive. It's an effective way for an evil overlord to remain in power. So I guess Visitors earning and keeping their Ideya means that their hearts are filled with light and Wizeman constantly loses power. Huh... Very interesting. Darkness can be any number of things, but considering the nature of the Ideya...that's a reasonable explanation. Chalk another point up on the "Wizeman's Power Fluctuations" theory.

How the heck did I miss that? lol Good one.

*several minutes later*
...Actually...it makes sense that Reala would want to make Will and Helen feel hopeless in those deleted racing scenes now. By winning he's helping Master Wizeman gain power AND weakening the Visitors.

And now for something completely different.

Owl, Wizeman, Cerebus, and Octopaw. What do they have in common? They're all brothers. Or rather, they're all archetype type thingymajig type things. Owl is clearly a mentor figure, all knowledge and no action. Wizeman is the big bad evil guy that all stories have. Big, bad, and evil. Cerebus.... well, he's a representation of a different kind of evil, maybe blind rage or endless hunger. And Octopaw? The unknown. Curiosity. Exploration.

Octopaw - The Enigma, future Nightopia boss. XD

Owl, Wizeman, Cerebus, and Octopaw. What do they have in common? They're all brothers. Or rather, they're all archetype type thingymajig type things. Owl is clearly a mentor figure, all knowledge and no action. Wizeman is the big bad evil guy that all stories have. Big, bad, and evil. Cerebus.... well, he's a representation of a different kind of evil, maybe blind rage or endless hunger. And Octopaw? The unknown. Curiosity. Exploration.

I wonder what the bosses mean...

Donbalon- Sports GONE HORRIBLY WRONG!

Chamelan- The Unknown

Cerberus- Animalistic viciousness

Girania- SPARTAAAAAA!!

Bomamba- Confusin, having to adapt to sudden changes.

Queen Bella- The death of Helen's love of music

NiGHTS- Anima

Reala- Animus

Wizeman- Domination

Your thoughts?

Donbalon - Creepy clown (add this with Will's Dad and it's no wonder the kid's screwed up)

Chamelan - Trickery, hiding, deceit, backstabbing, untrustworthy

Cerberus - Guardian to the Underworld (....to Hades)

Girania - Gracefulness gone wrong (More like shattering gracefulness to pieces)

Bomamba - Confusin, having to adapt to sudden changes.

(agreed)

Queen Bella - The death of Helen's love of music

(agreed)

NiGHTS - Anima

(Also) Youthfulness, responsibility

Reala - Animus

(Also) Stubbornness, believing certain actions are for the best

Wizeman - Hades, omnipotence, ultimate hurdle, doubt incarnate (heck, EVIL incarnate), life, 42, fear, etc. (anything and everything that deals with Nightmare)

...I think Wizeman has a thing for circus-themed Nightmarens... In any case, these are just what were thought up at the top of my head.

Actually, I don't think Nightmaren are Archetypes. They're creatures made by an archetype--specifically, ol wize dude--but not archetypes themselves. Nightopians, on the other hand, could be made by some other archetype.... and Mepians are fun when they cross. WHOO! Mepian equality, yall!

Here's a thought: Game one, every time NiGHTS fights a boss, he has five Ideya under his belt. Right? They just spun around collecting them, and all.... but in JoD, he has less then that in all his fights. Even the secret ending fight. No really. It makes perfect sense that he's less powerful, because he's running with less batteries.

Or she. Forgot the or she in there.

Okay, and now for my theory regarding first levels. Wizeguy made five (although only three appear in game), and each was to steal a certain type of Ideya. First off, Jackle. Target Purity. When you really think about it, Jackles perversely insane and insanely perverse, so he's perfect for throwing out whites. Problem, though, is that his insanity makes him unpridictable, and his sheer power is a bit of a bother. Wizeman lets him live because, hey, even if he's not getting whites, he's getting darks.

While Jackle opens a fast food chain, Wize starts on the second. A heck of a lot more obedient, and not nearly as powerful. Target: Hope. And we get Reala, who's cunning, conniving, and absolutely at a loss without orders. Picture it: Every time he brings home an Ideya, he stands there, looking sheepish, until he finally asks "What next?" Every. Single. Time. Finally he just gets standing orders, and Wizman turns his hands to the next level one....

Now here's where it gets vague. For my theory to work, there have to be two other unnamed, unseen Nightmaren that the programmers can introduce in the sequel. Did NiGHTS come immediately after Reala, or was he a few steps down the line? Jackle knows, but he ain't telling me.... whatev.

Anyways, these guys have some of Jackle's independence but aren't going to defy Wizedude because, well, he's big eyehand man. Now, this next part sounds patently ridiculous, but remember that old comic where they said the jewel on NiGHTS is a red Ideya shard? Sit down, I'll justify it! In game two, Owl mentions that jewel mountain spouts, guess what, "shards of the Ideya." Therefore, there ARE shards, and they can be handled by Nightmaren. Is it really that big a leap for this purple guy, goaded by someone who's probably Jackle, to take a dare and lodge it in his chest?

This actually ties into my theory that Jackle's planning to take control of Nightmare, but that's another story.

ANYway, now NiGHTS gets a taste of courage. He starts to realize, hey, he doesn't have to follow Wizeman at all! Wizeman, who's making all the lesser nightmaren now because he realized that level ones have expensive upkeep, suddenly gets interupted by this purple jester punk who rants on about this stupid idea of free will---and comes down hard on the guy.

Interesting theories, but I don't think that NiGHTS, Reala, and Jackle could have been made at different times. They all fit together with physical and emotional traits that neither of the others have, making it seem like NiGHTS and Jackle are the mistakes that had to be pulled out of Reala's soul to make him perfect. I went into more detail in another topic, I think my "Reala" thread, so I'll save you an endless essay.

So you're saying that NiGHTS, Reala, and Jackle are all retrodualized from the original source? If we assume, as is logical, that retrodualization evenly splits power, and that apparently Reala and NiGHTS are evenly matched, then Jackle is logically twice as powerful as NGHTS or Reala.

Not sure a a Second-Level like Jackle could ever surpass Reala or NiGHTS in power. The loon makes up for it in size though. It just seems that Jackle was made first (I believe that was established earlier that he was a proto-Maren) then based on their personalities, NiGHTS was made second then Reala third. It could be said that Jackle and NiGHTS were experiments to see how to create a perfect Maren. It could also be said that Jackle and NiGHTS were the "impurities" of Reala.

As for being made at different times...well we still don't know how long it takes to make a First-Level (nevertheless what entirely goes into making one aside from a piece of the maker's essence) or why Wizeman either hasn't made any others or has kept the unknown Marens locked up somewhere. And even if they were made at different times, both the Waking and the Dreaming work on different rates of time (or at least could be). So to us it could have been the same time and for Wizeman it could have been months or even years.

Also, a thought: What if Wizeman put the jewel in NiGHTS' chest because he/she wasn't strong enough to live without it? (Step up from Jackle at least.) Heck, the jewel could be meaningless for all we know...

That jewel is a mystery in and of itself...

...I think Wizeman has a thing for circus-themed Nightmarens...

Or maybe, in an in-universe explanation, those Nightmarens gave the inspiration for Visitors/people to dress like them in the waking world.
Think about that.

XD Dude, that makes sense why there are people afraid of clowns. The stuff of Nightmares...

>>

<<

Actually, it would go deeper then that. Clowns are unusual.... but the fact is, so are the entirety of circuses. We go to see the bizarre. But when the bizarre comes to see us, we get uncomfortable.

Here's a theory: the phrase Frog Blast The Vent Core will be used in the next NiGHTS game.

Hey, what if dualization was used as a method of nightmaren reproduction? Think about it; first and seconds are infertile, but thirds are found in drove. Dualization can be used to avoid the messy business of sex (something Wizeman would learn about from wet dreams) and saves a lot in the cost of production at the price of power!

Maybe I should go to bed now. I'm starting to make sense.

So you're saying that NiGHTS, Reala, and Jackle are all retrodualized from the original source? If we assume, as is logical, that retrodualization evenly splits power, and that apparently Reala and NiGHTS are evenly matched, then Jackle is logically twice as powerful as NGHTS or Reala.

Not exactly. Imagine a Nightmaren soup. The soup is it's own entity; it's not a carrot, but it has carrot-y elements. However, the potoes stay potatoes even when in the soup, and they are their own entity out of the soup. If you have a creature and took out it's crazy aspects, it's still powerfull, because now it doesn't have to worry about not being reasonable. The crazy part is also powerful, becuase it isn't restrained. NiGHTS, Reala. and Jackle are not equal, but one is not more powerful than the other. NiGHTS's free spirit makes hm strong, Reala's disciplined brute strength makes him powerful, and Jackle's craziness make him stong. It's not retrodualization, because there's no set ratios to be experienced with each half.

Did that make any sense?

Actually, it would go deeper then that. Clowns are unusual.... but the fact is, so are the entirety of circuses. We go to see the bizarre. But when the bizarre comes to see us, we get uncomfortable.

Here's a theory: the phrase Frog Blast The Vent Core will be used in the next NiGHTS game.

Hey, what if dualization was used as a method of nightmaren reproduction? Think about it; first and seconds are infertile, but thirds are found in drove. Dualization can be used to avoid the messy business of sex (something Wizeman would learn about from wet dreams) and saves a lot in the cost of production at the price of power!

Maybe I should go to bed now. I'm starting to make sense.

Interesting theory, but that would lead to really creepy implications involving NiGHTS and the kids...*shudder*...

Did that make any sense?

Yep. Glad I already ate or I'd be hungry right about now. ^^;

Interesting theory, but that would lead to really creepy implications involving NiGHTS and the kids...*shudder*...

I'm siding with just plain creepy on this one.. >>

The fun in all this is that even if we make sense of some things, there's no way to nail down every mystery of the Dream World. Doesn't mean we can't try though. ^^

Yep. Glad I already ate or I'd be hungry right about now. ^^;

Good thing I deleted the part where I called Reala a carrot, NiGHTS a potato, and Jackle celery.

Ideya seem to govern Nightopia, and there are five. Perhaps there are more Nightmare deities than Wizey?

Can't believe I missed this. It took watching someone else play JoD for the first time for it to hit me. Simple update, nothing more.

JoD Before NiD Theory 2: A Little Rebellion is Just the Beginning

Update: Evidence supporting that NiGHTS was rebelling for the first time in JoD. This is mentioned in Aqua Garden before Owl challenges NiGHTS and Helen to make a larger sphere of water than his.
NiGHTS:

I can't believe this...

Even with the Nightmarens out there,
these fellows are so... carefree!

I guess that's part of what makes
Nightopia such a great place.

This would only make sense if NiGHTS was new to understanding Nightopians, as if he knew next to nothing about them.

Sorry I couldn't read all of the messages. It is almost imposibble. I read %80 of the first post.

So here is my theory which I think explains everything.

Theory of All:

Night Dimension exists in past, present and future. And it (also every livingbeing in it) can exist million copies in the same time according to the visitor number who managed to reach Nightopia.

I think:
-Visitors that have destroyed Wizeman will never ever have nightmares again, but they can still visit Nightopia. They cannot meet NiGHTS, but they can meet Owl. He isn't dead.
-Why NiGHTS is shown alive at the end he is only dead in one of the visitor's dream. So there are millions of NiGHTS, but it is the same NiGHTS in all. After all, NiGHTS and Owl doesn't meet all of visitors. There are many visitors stuck in Dream Gate or didn't even reach it.

Theory 1: Dream Drops of Remembrance

Since Night Dimension is timeless, my response to that is yes they are memories of Claris and Elliot.

Theory 3: Octopaw's...Everywhere

Like I said, Night Dimension living beings exist everywhere. Octopaw isn't being carried from world to world.

Theory 3a:

By the way did anyone ever mention sources of rings and blue spheres? Rings are obviously creation of Octopaw.
Blue Spheres look like Ideyas actually. There is no official evidence but I like calling them Dark Blue Ideya of Joy which belong to only nightopians.

Theory 4: NiGHTS' Betrayal

NiGHTS states that he is not a puppet of Wizeman because he has freewill. What I'm going to tell is kinda religious but it is logical. In my religion, it is said human have freewill they can betray their god (of course I won't to mine ). So why not NiGHTS betray his god if his god is bad? However, when NiGHTS betrayed cannot be known. Night Dimension exists since forever. What about beginning of nighmare? It is like our world isn't it? We can't know when it began.

Theory 5: To Brainwash, or Not to Brainwash?

I don't think he was gonna "brainwash" NiGHTS. He was going to kill his soul (not body) and give him a new soul. Wizeman said NiGHTS could have accepted Wizeman's offer and at least his body could have lived on. (Sorry I can't remember exact quotes, but he said that I'm sure)
So it was not going to be NiGHTS anymore.

Theory 1: Placing the Games in Order

JoD is a prequel. We can understand this from the city appearances. But both games are timeless when in NiGHT Dimension.

Jackle's Disappearance

He didn't disappear. He was belonging to one dream (might be more than one) and he is dead in that dream now.

Reala's Persona

Personas doesn't contain any power. They are just symbol of loyalty to Wizeman. By the way, NiGHTS still can shapeshift without personas in JoD. Remember Boat and Rollercoaster NiGHTS?

NiGHTS Never Dies

Yes Wizeman can never be destroyed. But although, he can be destroyed in each dream not to ever be alive in that certain dream again.

I read through all of this, and what i found most intriguing was the "To Brainwash or not to Brainwash", "Jackle's Creation", and "What First Level Nightmaren are made of." It makes perfect sense that 1st-Level Nightmaren would be made of humans, considering that Wizehand at least claims that he can take a body and change it's soul ("If you had only accepted my offer to accept a new soul, your body could have lived on..."). However, then why would Wizehand make the mistake of discarding Helen into the void (which became Bellbridge... oops)? It doesn't make much sense that he wouldn't try to use Helen to create a new First Leveler, considering that under the circumstances, NiGHTS would probably end being destroyed by Wizehand (as far as he plans, anyway), so he'd want the supplies to at least make another, right? Perhaps they have to loose their Ideya first. Notice how NiGHTS has no Ideya, and how rather than destroying her, Wizehand knocked out her Ideya and let her fall. We have no proof that there is a floor down there, do we? She'd kinda just fall farther into the void, huh?

In addition, "What I have created I can just as easily destroy", if not considered a bluff, can be a kind of backfireish proof twards the fact that making NiGHTS was hard. Can Wizehand beat NiGHTS that easily? No. So creating him is just as hard as defeating him. Of course, NiGHTS was created, so he still should be destroyable. That brings up the theory that it takes eons to make 1st-Level Nightmaren. Then it must take eons to destroy them, furthering why Jackle was never destroyed in NiD. So is THAT why he's gone in JoD? If so, he must be the first 1st Leveler. Perhaps he's the reason why NiGHTS and Reala were created as separate beings- too many positive traits in one being leads to extreme instability, which Wizeman was unaware of.

I'm not sure if i'm allowed to bump, so i'm just gonna pray that i don't get jumped by the staff and... *flinches*

Hello, I'm new to the boards and found this thread intriguing. I didn't see this particular question raised before (sorry if it has been and I hadn't read it) but one thing I've wanted to know is if there are any other types of Dream Beings besides the Nightmarens and the Nightopians. Not in the sense of asking if there are any more 'factions' in the war for the Visitor's mind, but I was wondering two things:

1: Do all Nightmares come from Wizeman? At first this seems like a rather obvious question, but if you think about two things a few difficulties present themselves. First of all, humanity has had nightmares as long as they have been having dreams, which would mean Wizeman is incredibly old, or that one's consciousness is immortal if it becomes completely immersed in the Night Dimension. Alternately, it could be that Wizeman is actually a title passed to the Visitor with the least Idyea and most power, making the god of Nightmares nothing more than a persona himself, with a personality solely dictated by tradition and fear and hatred. Another thing that is more personal opinion than anything else is the characteristics of the lowest level Nightmarens, the ones you can easily defeat, some with a simple touch-loop. They just look so darn cute. How is he going to try to scare anyone with those?

2: Are there other Nightopians besides the kind we’re all familiar with? None of them seem to possess much intelligence (at least in JoD they were never given any lines), and they all look very similar, with the same body type and desires. The only good Dream Being (Besides NiGHTS) is Owl, whose origins and backstory are never explained. It just seems that Nightopia looks awfully uniform among its inhabitants, which seems a little odd considering they have no unified leadership or single creator. If it weren’t for everyone’s favorite Nightmaren turning rouge, would Nightopia be as completely defenseless as it looks?

Yeah, so there are the top thoughts on my mind for the three months before I finally got an account on the forums. So let me know what you think or if there is official word on this.

You raise some good questions there, Diputs. It's actually something i wonder about myself because aside from Owl there was also Octopaw too, in Journey of Dreams. That creature was also not of Nightmaren origin but rather just 'existed' in Nightopia.

Then, if you're really wanting to dig deeper in to inhabitants of the dreamworld, the Egg Clock from the first game was also alive yet was neither of Nightopian nor Nightmaren creation. And in Journey of Dreams, it's replacement, The Awakers too seem to just exist for their own purposes rather than take a side.
In fact (and for the life of me, i can't remember where i read this) but the Ideya Captures in the original NiGHTS into Dreams (the things you destroy to free an Ideya orb) were actually living creatures too, of some sort. I'm not sure how legit that last factoid is but still it adds to this discussion should they actually be creatures rather than mechanical objects.

I personaly like to believe there is way more to the dreamworld in NiGHTS' games than just either being Nightopian based or being part of the factions of Nightmare. But with NiGHTS into Dreams being about how we interpreted the universe, Journey of Dreams kinda tried to feed us it instead but there's only so much you can explain in a game like JoD. Especially when deadlines need to be met and things need to be cut, i highly expect that if Sonic Teams original intention was to develop the dream world more for JoD they simply couldn't do so with the time and limitations they had.

So, in short, yes. I agree with you. I believe there is much more to the world of dreams than just Nightopians and Nightmare. Whether it's ever fully developed on or explained remains to be seen.

I nearly forgot about Octopaw. The Art Gallery in JoD hints at a 'female' Octopaw if I recall correctly, a blue spots on pink color swap with bows on her head; though we never see her ingame.

Both the Egg Clock and the Awakers seem completely different than the other Night Beings, the Nightmarens want the Visitors asleep to steal their Ideya, and the Nightopians seem to have the world around them shaped by a Visitor, not to mention they seem to enjoy their company, so they kind of like having the Visitor asleep. The Egg Clock and Awakers both seem to notice the Visitor doesn't belong and try to rectify that situation. Maybe they actually think they are doing the Visitor a favor, since if given a choice most people would stay in Nightopia forever. Alternately, they could simply represent an external stimulus trying to wake the Dreamer. Incidentally, if Wizeman is a visitor who lost all his Ideya, does he have problems with Egg Clocks and Awakers?

I do recall in the NiD strategy guide reading the Ideya Captures were actually alive, the full quote was something like 'Even though they have a machine-like appearence, the Ideya Captures are actually living creatures.'

Also, I may have had a bit of a revelation. What if there are other sentient or humanoid Nightopians, but we never see them because they and NiGHTS aviod each other? It would make sense that they wouldn't show up around what they believe to be a First-Level Nightmaren.

Yes, I do think there is much more in the Night Dimension than we currently imagine, I do hope we get to see much more of it in later games.

Oh yeah! I did forget about the concept art for Octopaw. There was a female version in the design sketches. I'm not sure if that was a genuine design idea or if the artist was just playing about. Still, interesting never the less.

Indeed, the Egg Clock and Awakers are trying to take the dreamers out from the dream so they certainly wouldn't be under Wizemans control. They could very well be just parts of the dreamers subconscious connection to the waking world and therefore are conjured up simply from the dreamers mind as it's time to wake up. But if those two types of beings could be answered for then it still doesn't answer Owl's origin. He's something that is constant and can exist in the dreamworld without any dreamers being present. I do feel if Sonic Team had been given more time, perhaps if the JoD project wasn't moved to the Wii, then things would have been fleshed out a bit more.

In regards to Wizeman, i'm not sure he would have been a visitor who lost their Ideya. If Wizeman was a normal visitor who had lost all their Ideya then who did they lose it to? Before Wizeman there would have been no Nightmare or any Nightmaren around to try and steal visitors Ideya. Nightmare and all it's creatures were Wizemans own creation. The theory seems a little broken. A nice theory though but it doesn't hold up when you look at it in the bigger picture of the world in which the story takes place.

That being said ...even though i don't think Wizeman was a visitor before hand ....i now feel that something they could do with NiGHTS in the future is show what could potentially happen should a visitor lose all their Ideya. What the consequences would be to that fallen dreamer.

In regards to Wizeman, i'm not sure he would have been a visitor who lost their Ideya. If Wizeman was a normal visitor who had lost all their Ideya then who did they lose it to? Before Wizeman there would have been no Nightmare or any Nightmaren around to try and steal visitors Ideya. Nightmare and all it's creatures were Wizemans own creation. The theory seems a little broken. A nice theory though but it doesn't hold up when you look at it in the bigger picture of the world in which the story takes place.

That being said ...even though i don't think Wizeman was a visitor before hand ....i now feel that something they could do with NiGHTS in the future is show what could potentially happen should a visitor lose all their Ideya. What the consequences would be to that fallen dreamer.

I thought for sure I had read something about Wizeman being a visitor. I just checked on the wiki though, and under trivia on the Wizeman page the exact quote is, "Wizeman is not only a dictator of Nightmare but as well the God of Nightmare, it's said that he is a visitor without any Ideya."
Of course this could be someone else's speculation on him, and the 'it's said' clause allows even someone in the game to be wrong if they actually did say it somewhere; insinuating they were just guessing as well. It would make more sense for him not to be, I'll agree to that, if only because then I can get the image of the god of Nightmare running from an Egg Clock out of my head.

It would be interesting to see the results of Wizeman winning once. Just imagine, Bellbridge, Helen just unlocked the second door. Suddenly, the lights turn out, the music stops, and she hears Wizeman laughing. She feels her red Ideya leaving her and begins to fall... And Will is still chasing that irritating first bird.(I can never get that one on the first lap) Would she be reborn as a servant of Wizeman, and if so, would she be granted any sort of powers(Flight, Paraloop, Personnas)? Or would she be simply helpless and unable to do anything, without any Ideya it is suggested to be impossible to go through the barriers to the Ideya Palace and NiGHTS Captures, and since NiGHTS presumably couldn't get in she couldn't Dualize to escape. I had recalled reading in the NiD strategy guide that Wizeman planned on moving to the real world after finishing off the Night Dimension, and my first assumption was that he could use someone without any Ideya and control them even while awake, or if not control directly keep in fear and service.

That would make a interesting break from the same game formula. (Not that I'm saying I don't like the simple and straightforward method in the current games, nor am I suggesting they change it.) But it would be awesome to think you've finally gone through the three dreams per child, and are about to beat the game, and all of a sudden WHAM! out of nowhere you have either to fight the other dreamer and go through Nightmare and back to save them.

Speaking of which, that's another thing I've always wondered. We've been through Nightopia several times, but we've only ever seen the throne of Nightmare. Would Nightmare be the same throughout, or would it be as varied as its flipside? Unless that's what Wizeman wants the Dreamers for!

Ok, new theory. What if the realm of Nightmare is actually created by a Dreamer having lost all their Ideya? They might still project onto the world around them, but it would be warped, twisted, and frightening. The same way Nightopia is said to be created by the light of the Ideya, Nightmare may be created by its lack. In that case, Wizeman's control would expand literally with every Visitor he manages to capture. It would make sense then to have a Third-Level Maren in each area, trying to make sure the Visitor cannot regain Ideya on their own, in addition to having the two First-Levels he originally intended to have following the Dreamers and keeping tabs on them(hence NiGHTS and Reala's design being more for chase than direct combat).

Oh, the NiGHTS wikipedia page? I just checked it out now and saw what you were refering to. I think that information regarding Wizeman being a dreamer who lost all their Ideya may stem from the old Sonic Team website for the original NiGHTS. I asked TRiPPY about it and she mentions she heard the Wizeman origin story before too from there. But it could be something totally lost in translation, we could very well be taking it out of context. But ...then again, we totally might not be. I mean, Splash Garden and Puffy are meant to represent Elliot's mother, according to translating text from that old website. Maybe it might be time to find ourselves a proper translator to go over all those old development details for NiGHTS into Dreams.

In regards to what Nightmare is, i would have thought that the boss arena's are segments of Nightmare, wouldn't they be? However, if you're talking about what happens in JoD where Helen questions as to what is in that 'dark cloud down there' then, yeah, i also think that maybe they could have shown us a bit more. But that's another good idea, what becomes of someone who does fall down there? I think i recall Owl saying that there's no way to return from it? (i could be wrong about that though).

I’m not sure if the dark clouds the Dream Gate is floating in is the same as Nightmare. The exact quote from Helen’s story is:
"
Hey, hold on a moment!
There's something I forgot to tell you.

You see that Dark Ocean over there?
You'd be best off if you don't go anywhere
near it.

You mean... that... that ocean over there,
with the black water?

Right.
I don't really know exactly what it is,
myself.

But they say it can destroy a
Visitor's soul, and then they'll never
be able to return here again.

Oh my...

Well, anyway. It's just a story...
Let's get back to the Dream Gate.
"
Even NiGHTS doesn’t know exactly what it is, and you’d think a Nightmaren could recognize Nightmare. I had been under the impression it was some kind of ‘true’ sleep, one where you don’t dream, with my primary evidence being Bellbridge’s loading screen, with the subtitle ‘The Unconscious Space’. Will’s event is:
"
Hey, hold it!

You see that black sea down there?
Make sure you stay away from it.

Ah, yes! You must never go near the
Dark Ocean!

It is a world of chaos and void. Hoo!
If you slip in, you may never return!

Okay, that wasn't bad for your first time!
Let's get back to the Dream Gate!
"
It seems Owl isn’t confident of a Visitor’s ability to navigate it, whatever the ‘Dark Ocean’ is. I also thought, but don’t have the exact quote of, in Will’s story, Owl said something along the lines of ‘that you’ve managed to keep your Ideya coming here is remarkable’. With here referring to the Dream Gate, and no door entered to arrive there, it might be possible the Dark Ocean removes Ideya from someone travelling through it unless they have great resolve(such as that shown by the kids when they jump into it to try to save NiGHTS). It may be possible that the Dark Ocean is actually the gateway to the waking world, since it is going through it that leads you to a version of Bellbridge(I was never sure whether they had actually travelled there or simply dreamed of their hometown. If it was the former then that’s pretty good evidence for the Dark Ocean being some kind of a barrier for the Night Dimension).
The theory I was trying in the last post was that Nightmare was a precise flipside of Nightopia, being formed as individual, unconnected dreams by a Visitor; and suggesting that was Wizeman’s motivation for removing Ideya from Dreamers. The boss areas do seem like parts of Nightmare, but they may be the equivalent of a hole trying to breach the Dream, or the area around them conforming to the Dreamers impression of the Maren that just entered their world. Incidentally, neither Reala nor NiGHTS has an arena (in JoD, Reala had one in NiD); they just fight wherever they are without messing up the world. Is this a First-Level difference or just their choice? If it is their choice, why wouldn’t NiGHTS try to overpower a Third-Level trying to pull up their arena?
Still, this is a really big rabbit trail on the subject of how Nightmare itself is made, whether it is like Nightopia and created by Visitors or whether it exists solely because Wizeman says so.

I recently replayed the story mode of Journey of Dreams and think I might have hit on a couple of things. Of course, I might be wrong, but bear with me as I delve into the mysteries of the Night Dimension.

It was mentioned much earlier in the thread that it would only make sense for Wizeman to want to replace NiGHTS’ mind if it were hard to create a First Level Nightmaren. My suggestion is that what if it’s next to impossible to destroy them anyway?
This argument mostly hinges on two things; first, that NiGHTS and the other Maren are embodiments of things humans fear, in other words, Wizeman is using the subconscious of humans to form his servants. If this is true, the only way to get rid of the Nightmaren once it has form and is known to Visitors would be to change the Visitor’s perception of it, and the best way to do that would be to change the way it is acting. This is a little closer to quantum mechanics than I’m comfortable with, but still it might be one solution. My second one(which makes a little more sense) is that NiGHTS has had balls spit at her, been spiked, can run into bombs, get hit by lava, get electrified, eaten, stung by bees, Drill Dashed, Paralooped, hit with a fiery meteor by Wizeman when it would be in his interest to make sure his creation goes down permanently instead of simply be trapped; all with what response? ‘Ow!’(minus 5 seconds on the timer). Simply put, you can play awfully with NiGHTS and he’s pretty hard to kill.

My second thing of interest comes from Crystal Castle, where in the last level before you fight Bonamba a second time you have to collect the jewels being erupted out of the volcano. Owl says in the introduction, ‘Jewels that shine with the light of Ideya… They’re part of the Ideya!’ It isn’t much, but it provides a bit more evidence for the red crystal in the center of NiGHTS’ chest to be a shard of red Ideya.

My third and possibly most important piece of information comes from Bellbridge, where I took the time to pause and use the Owl symbol on the pause menu to get a hint. Owl said, ‘Those shards of light are NiGHTS way of showing you the path.’ Those familiar with the Bellbridge level know about the blue star looking things you can fly into to create rings, extend poles, or turn buildings into balloons. If NiGHTS really did leave those, this suggests a great deal more power in our favorite Maren than we suspected. From their appearance, I would suggest they are some form of concentrated or raw Twinkle Dust, the same kind that trails behind NiGHTS when she normally flies. If this is true, it may be that NiGHTS holds back during the rest of the game, or simply that such power can only be used in extreme emergencies, or maybe even that it can only be used when a Visitor has been Dualized with NiGHTS and is flying alone now.

Yeah, that’s all I’ve got for now. I’d love to have some more discussion on some of these, Nightopia is such a wonderful place to explore.

I’m not sure if the dark clouds the Dream Gate is floating in is the same as Nightmare. The exact quote from Helen’s story is:
"
Hey, hold on a moment!
There's something I forgot to tell you.

You see that Dark Ocean over there?
You'd be best off if you don't go anywhere
near it.

You mean... that... that ocean over there,
with the black water?

Right.
I don't really know exactly what it is,
myself.

But they say it can destroy a
Visitor's soul, and then they'll never
be able to return here again.

Oh my...

Well, anyway. It's just a story...
Let's get back to the Dream Gate.
"
Even NiGHTS doesn’t know exactly what it is, and you’d think a Nightmaren could recognize Nightmare.

I think NiGHTS knew what it was but I think she was trying to cover up the fact that she is a nightmaren is order to keep the visitors' trust.

I’m not sure if the dark clouds the Dream Gate is floating in is the same as Nightmare. The exact quote from Helen’s story is:
"
Hey, hold on a moment!
There's something I forgot to tell you.

You see that Dark Ocean over there?
You'd be best off if you don't go anywhere
near it.

You mean... that... that ocean over there,
with the black water?

Right.
I don't really know exactly what it is,
myself.

But they say it can destroy a
Visitor's soul, and then they'll never
be able to return here again.

Oh my...

Well, anyway. It's just a story...
Let's get back to the Dream Gate.
"
Even NiGHTS doesn’t know exactly what it is, and you’d think a Nightmaren could recognize Nightmare.

I think NiGHTS knew what it was but I think she was trying to cover up the fact that she is a nightmaren is order to keep the visitors' trust.

The balls of glitter NiGHTS leaves to let the children know where to go makes sense as a Nightmaren: how better to lure dreamers into Nightmare than with shiny things? Wizeman's plans make a lot more sense now.

Wow! Interest has started up again here and others are submitting theories. Loving this. ^^

My third and possibly most important piece of information comes from Bellbridge, where I took the time to pause and use the Owl symbol on the pause menu to get a hint. Owl said, ‘Those shards of light are NiGHTS way of showing you the path.’ Those familiar with the Bellbridge level know about the blue star looking things you can fly into to create rings, extend poles, or turn buildings into balloons. If NiGHTS really did leave those, this suggests a great deal more power in our favorite Maren than we suspected. From their appearance, I would suggest they are some form of concentrated or raw Twinkle Dust, the same kind that trails behind NiGHTS when she normally flies. If this is true, it may be that NiGHTS holds back during the rest of the game, or simply that such power can only be used in extreme emergencies, or maybe even that it can only be used when a Visitor has been Dualized with NiGHTS and is flying alone now.

Yeah, that’s all I’ve got for now. I’d love to have some more discussion on some of these, Nightopia is such a wonderful place to explore.

I never looked up his hint there before. o_o Those condensed Twinkle Dust spheres in addition to keeping his consciousness, fighting Reala, dualizing with both Visitors, and taking down Wizeman. And he doesn't even break a sweat before bowing at the very end. Wizeman sure makes his creations durable. o_o But got dang it, can't NiGHTS just paraloop and drill dash those blasted birds in the chase missions instead of being captured? XD I wouldn't be surprised if it were a gambit in NiD to get captured in every stage after the first just so he/she could aid the Visitors and gain strength. Devious Nightmaren! XD;;;
Or maybe, going by JoD before NiD, NiGHTS wasn't strong enough to break free by himself back then? O_o First-Level couldn't break free. @_@ *brain frizzle*
Not enough nightmare energy to do so, maybe? D: Maybe being outside of the Nightmare realm for so long, or not being within Wizeman's grasp, weakens the Nightmarens? NiGHTS has the largest and most noticeable gem on his chest out of all the Nightmarens I've seen. Perhaps it's the Visitors' courage that give him strength through that? O_o


Just a thought, but perhaps it's the energy and affection from the Visitors he dualizes with that eventually gives NiGHTS the strength to live on without Wizeman? Only speculation, of course.
/crazy train of thought

Sorry. Haven't theorized in a while. ^^; Just making a lot of questions.

iVYRAVE: That does make some sense, but NiGHTS doesn't hesitate to point out certain things as coming from Nightmare in the dreams, including if I remember correctly a cloud sucking up Nightopians in Pure Valley. Also, NiGHTS doesn't lie when given the opportunity to do so by Helen, during Reala's 'NiGHTS was against you all along!' speech. I think Helen would have believed NiGHTS had he lied. NiGHTS also notably never denies connections to Nightmare, even though she does move the conversation if it's getting too close.

Nocturne Wonderland: Visitor: 'Wow, look at this place! everything's so wonderfull I must be dreaming... Huh? What's this? Ooh, shiny! Oh, it's getting away, COME BACK SHINY!!! *follows Shiny* ...Oops'. Wizeman: Mwa-Ha-Ha, another Visitor right where I want him. Good work NiGHTS. NiGHTS: *Too busy trying to catch own Shinies to reply* Reala: Sigh…

SmashQueen: Yeah, it does seem to come back to the question of where NiGHTS gets her power from. It seems (And this is a really weird guess) there is some kind of materiel in the Night Dimension that limits the power of the inhabitants and can be used to build gazeboes, cages, and chains. Thus, in theory any creation of Wizeman couldn’t break free, and that’s why Visitors are needed to enter and Dualize. As to the idea of why NiGHTS lets himself get captured each stage, it actually does make some sense to do that and then allow a Visitor to rescue you, judging by Reala’s quote, “You’re the one who can’t do anything without borrowing power from Visitors!” It seems a bit like a plan that could have a lot go wrong with it, but it might also be the best way for a newly-rebelling Maren to gain power and allies. At the same time though, each fight with Reala is unDualized and NiGHTS is still victorious, even with Reala presumably not holding back and pumped full of Nightmare. (Actually, this was one of the few things that irritated me about JoD. After the first two times barring Delight City where the trap was more devious, wouldn’t NiGHTS just learn to not stand still? This question is resolved if it is a gambit to keep the Visitors with her.)

Here's another thing about NiGHTS

Why is NiGHTS a jester?
I suppose the creators behind NiGHTS have an explanation but I have a possible reason which connects NiGHTS form to the storylines.
Recently in the US I bought a dream dictionary, look what I found under the definition of 'Jester'

Jester: To dream of a jester, foretells that you ignore important things in looking after silly (or not-as-important) affairs

Doesn't that have connection to the story lines in someway as Helen ignores important rehearsals for a violin recital in order to hang around with friends and the same way which Will is too busy playing with his dad to get involved with everything else.

Reply to Diputs
I see your point, NiGHTS does say that she has connections with nightmare but never to blantentnly say that she is a nightmaren as 'Hello Kiddies I am a nightmaren, please help me escape' isn't always the best start to gain someone's trust. I think that all nightopians have a connection to nightmare one way or the other, I think most of her lines about nightmare are something what owl or any other nightopian would say about the dangers except for certain lines about somethings only a nightmaren would know but Helen and Will wouldn't be able to point them out as they aren't experienced and NiGHTS knows that.

Another question
All beings of the night dimension are genderless, but why do some of the characters (e.g. Reala and Owl) act/speak as if they have a gender? Is that a mistake on SEGA's behalf or is there something more to it as in 'these characters act like this as they prefer to be that gender' I don't know what do you think?

I think, and some of this is borrowing from the topics earlier on this page, not to mention the interview with Yuji Naka NiDCOM has on the main page, the jester symbolism was chosen mainly because a jester is relly hard to read. They have bright colors and a lively look to them, but at the same time one can't help but wonder how much of it is in the costume and how much is in the actual character. Incidentally, quite a few children actually have a fear of clowns, but NiGHTS has just a slightly more 'natural' design, without the facepaint/personna Reala uses, so it's about perfect for a child's view of a reformed Nightmaren.

I see your point, NiGHTS does say that she has connections with nightmare but never to blantentnly say that she is a nightmaren as 'Hello Kiddies I am a nightmaren, please help me escape' isn't always the best start to gain someone's trust. I think that all nightopians have a connection to nightmare one way or the other, I think most of her lines about nightmare are something what owl or any other nightopian would say about the dangers except for certain lines about somethings only a nightmaren would know but Helen and Will wouldn't be able to point them out as they aren't experienced and NiGHTS knows that.

Well, the entire point of this side-debate we're on is to determine wether or not NiGHTS would lie about not knowing what Nightmare was in order to make the kids less suspicious. I think one could adequately say, "That's where the bad guys are coming from" without admitting to being a bad guy; otherwise the kids would have just as much reason to believe Owl is a Nightmaren based on his lines in Will's first Dream in Pure Valley, 'Those were Nightmarens from the dark realm of Nightmare'.

Anyway, I have much more to say but no time to write just now, so I'll end my post here.

I think, and some of this is borrowing from the topics earlier on this page, not to mention the interview with Yuji Naka NiDCOM has on the main page, the jester symbolism was chosen mainly because a jester is relly hard to read. They have bright colors and a lively look to them, but at the same time one can't help but wonder how much of it is in the costume and how much is in the actual character. Incidentally, quite a few children actually have a fear of clowns, but NiGHTS has just a slightly more 'natural' design, without the facepaint/personna Reala uses, so it's about perfect for a child's view of a reformed Nightmaren.

Oops...

Anyway, I'd say the appearence of gender is caused more by perception than reality. The thing that makes most people identify Reala as male is the extreme musculature (do you think Nightmarens work out?), which simply does not conform with the idea of 'female' to the modern mind. Owl... probably just does it to sound even smarter by playing off the absentmided professor.

Also, and this idea might be worthless because it has very little evidence, we've been speculating about NiGHTS' power for some time now. What if(and this doesn't answer where it ultumately comes from) Wizeman channels his power through the Personnas? 'It is a symbol of loyalty', but both Reala's and NiGHTS' have a miniature version of the jewel on their chest embedded in it. This might explain Reala's ability to summon the Mare Balloons in JoD, while in NiD he had to use drill dash and paraloop. It might also explain why NiGHTS was wearing the Personna in Crystal Castle--- Cheating on the new diet of Visitor aid.
Incidentally, does anyone besides me think NiGHTS looks pretty awesome in a Personna? The gaudiness seems so in character.